| <derspankster> Brady:you really there? | |
| <derspankster> guess not | |
| <atoponce> derspankster: try highlighting him | |
| <atoponce> he's probably unaware that you're looking for him | |
| <derspankster> I don't know how to do that | |
| <atoponce> what client are you using? | |
| <derspankster> Xchat | |
| <atoponce> type the first couple of his nick, then hit tab. | |
| <atoponce> that way, it completes it fully, and his client will hilight his nick like i did to you | |
| <atoponce> derspankster: like so | |
| <derspankster> Brady_M, like this? | |
| <atoponce> yeah | |
| <derspankster> didn't work, did it | |
| <atoponce> not for me or you, but for him | |
| <atoponce> it did | |
| <derspankster> mine wasn't red | |
| <atoponce> derspankster: red | |
| <atoponce> atoponce: not red | |
| <atoponce> because i did it | |
| <derspankster> ok, well, I've never bothered to learn all that I guess | |
| <atoponce> :) | |
| <derspankster> I just had a general question for him about a video card I've been screwing with | |
| <atoponce> what's the card? | |
| <derspankster> he and I were talking about it last night | |
| * atoponce takes a look | |
| <derspankster> nvidia 6200 with a loose heat sink | |
| <derspankster> think it's fried | |
| <atoponce> that sux | |
| <derspankster> I cleaned up the hs and chip, applied AS5 and found a way to reattach the HS and stuck it in my system | |
| <atoponce> did you apply that paste (i forget the term) | |
| <atoponce> ? | |
| <derspankster> it booted, but instead of a mouse pointer I get an oblong fuzzy block | |
| <derspankster> Arctic Silver 5 is what I used | |
| <atoponce> ahh. cool | |
| <derspankster> any mouse click freezes the system | |
| <atoponce> yeah. sounds like the card is dying, unless you're using the wrong driver | |
| <derspankster> Well, I have a Nvidia 4000 in here right now | |
| <derspankster> driver shouldn't be an issue | |
| <derspankster> I bought the card ebay - it showed up with the heat sink half off | |
| <atoponce> ooh. i'd return for a full refund | |
| <derspankster> seller is refunding my money and told me to keep the card | |
| <atoponce> where did you buy it? | |
| <atoponce> that almost seems like a scam to me | |
| <derspankster> which is nice - I provide him with 10 8 X 10 glossy color photographs of the item | |
| <derspankster> I'm wondering about that myself. I've started resolution with PayPal | |
| <atoponce> get it from ebay? | |
| <derspankster> yes | |
| <atoponce> i'd be keeping an eye on the return policy, and such | |
| <derspankster> supposedly new - but it wasn't very new | |
| <derspankster> Oh yes, like I said he is telling me that he's refunding my money | |
| <derspankster> we shall see | |
| <derspankster> hate to have to drive to Texas and break his legs | |
| <atoponce> lol | |
| <derspankster> it's a long drive | |
| <atoponce> yeah, but you can make him pay for the gas | |
| <atoponce> :) | |
| <cpradio> anyone in here use KDE? | |
| <rrittenhouse> aww he said the K word | |
| <derspankster> I'm really not mean - just old and cranky | |
| <cpradio> yes, I said the K word because I am a die hard fan of KDE, thank god for Kubuntu | |
| <atoponce> lol | |
| <cpradio> I never understood or liked the layout of Gnome .... just isn't productive for me. | |
| <rrittenhouse> i like both i just love to get stuff stirred up!!! | |
| <cpradio> :) | |
| <cpradio> I am trying to figure out why ALT+Tab only shows the windows on a specific monitor. I want it to list all windows on both monitors | |
| <cpradio> I have the 'Show windows on all screens' checked in the Configure Panel | |
| <rrittenhouse> never used dual | |
| <cpradio> :( | |
| <cpradio> I am also having a hard time cloning a drive over a network. I can get the data to write on the slave machine, but it never quits. After it finishes the entire disk, it outputs the results, but continues to hang there until I hit CTRL + C. Is that normal? | |
| <cpradio> I ran this on the server: sudo dd if=/dev/sdc1 | nc 192.168.0.100 9000 and this on the client: nc -l -p 9000 | dd of=/dev/sda1 | |
| <Brady_M> cpradio: hey you still their? | |
| <Brady_M> !screencast | |
| <ubot3> Factoid screencast not found | |
| <cpradio> yep, still here | |
| <cpradio> btw, found out using nc, you do have to hit CTRL + C to finish | |
| <cpradio> the clone worked. | |
| <Brady_M> cool | |
| <Brady_M> sorry, was dealin with some phising going on here on me ; ( | |
| <cpradio> ah, the joys of phishing. to raise some hopes though, I did win a battle at home today. I got the OK from my wife to convert her laptop to Ubuntu/Kubuntu | |
| <cpradio> :) | |
| <Brady_M> cpradio: Sweet! I done my 2nd PC today. Some poor farmer had his "Buddy" pull a fast one on him. So installed Ubuntu for him. Links to everything to help. He's afraid of his computer. LOL but keeps downloading malware | |
| <cpradio> my wife was hillarious, trying to come up with reasons why she can't switch to linux, can't run flash, can't check email, can't upload photos to our website gallery via Gallery Remote, etc. All of which I can ensure will work on her 32bit system. | |
| <Brady_M> cpradio: Done, done and done. | |
| <Brady_M> :) | |
| <cpradio> the only downside, is her business documents are primarily written in Access, and so I have to setup Wine or a VM so she can continue with that. | |
| <cpradio> I don't want to dual boot her machine, as then she will still continue to use Windows. | |
| <Brady_M> cpradio: I have to use flash still. Just 1. I payed allot for it, and 2 I waiting for the vector equivalent for Linux still. | |
| <Brady_M> cpradio: But that's just fine. have you seen Fedora's increase in installs since Jan? Last week over 2,500 installs! Seriously! | |
| <Brady_M> I mean million | |
| <cpradio> wow. that is a lot, and I pretty much considered them down the tube. | |
| <Brady_M> cpradio: Fedora's like using the "unstable beta which then is ported in Redhat. | |
| <Brady_M> once they pull kinks out | |
| <Brady_M> One of their devlopers just last week jumped over to Ubuntu to help out | |
| <Brady_M> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/06/1437245 | |
| <cpradio> yeah, well I have never considered redhat to be major. I tried them 4 years ago, then tried Debian, and fell in love with Debian | |
| <cpradio> Debian then was too far back on AMD64 and so I switch to Ubuntu or Kubuntu rather | |
| <Brady_M> Redhat was my first everyday used distro at work. I got admin classes on it in 200 | |
| <Brady_M> 2000 | |
| <cpradio> ah | |
| <cpradio> I have tried redhat, fedora, yellowdog, suse, mandrake, debian, and ubuntu. My two favs of the bunch have been debian and ubuntu | |
| <cpradio> primarily because the two or nearly the same | |
| <Brady_M> Yea, ditto. I'm comfortable with the Ubuntu setup and the large support end is strong. That's why been pushing it. | |
| <Brady_M> I tried linux mint. That one's nifty. | |
| <cpradio> never heard of it. | |
| <Brady_M> It's a distro ran off Ubuntu. | |
| <Brady_M> platform | |
| <Brady_M> It has about oh 20 people devloping it | |
| <Brady_M> it's a tiny new face | |
| <cpradio> some of the screenshots are interesting. probably fairly nice for new users to linux, but for those more experienced, it seems like I wouldn't use some of those interfaces | |
| <Brady_M> yea | |
| <Vorian> !sound | |
| <ubot3> If you're having problems with sound, first ensure ALSA is selected, by double clicking on the volume control, then File -> Change Device (ALSA Mixer). If that fails, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Sound - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoundTroubleshooting - http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php?page=DmixPlugin - For playing audio files, see !Players and !MP3 | |
| <Vorian> !mulitmedia | |
| <ubot3> Factoid mulitmedia not found | |
| <Vorian> !multimedia | |
| <ubot3> For multimedia codecs see: https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/common-tasks-chap.html and for applications see this: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MultimediaApplications | |
| <Vorian> !stupid | |
| <ubot3> Factoid stupid not found | |
| <Vorian> !intelligence | |
| <ubot3> Factoid intelligence not found | |
| <Brady_M> !screencast | |
| <ubot3> Factoid screencast not found | |
| <Brady_M> BAH! | |
| <Brady_M> Vorian: who manages that bot? | |
| <Vorian> nunya | |
| <Vorian> nunya biznus | |
| <Vorian> a hahaha | |
| <Vorian> hahaha | |
| <Brady_M> Can I suggest this linkie bud for !screencast? | |
| <Vorian> sure, | |
| <Vorian> hold please | |
| <Brady_M> ok | |
| * Brady_M hears elevator music "Your opinions count. Thank you for holding, and someone will be with you shortly...." *Music | |
| <Brady_M> whoops | |
| <Brady_M> Vorian: OK now? | |
| <Vorian> he must not be on. | |
| <Brady_M> Vorian: who he? | |
| <Brady_M> Vorian: He who? | |
| <Vorian> nalioth | |
| <Brady_M> Vorian: ah uh, he's the locobot...guy?.. | |
| * Brady_M Puzzeled | |
| <Vorian> yep | |
| <Vorian> he's the handler of ubot3 | |
| <Vorian> there are others too :P | |
| <Brady_M> Vorian: ok | |
| <Brady_M> Have you reviewed this ubuntu link? http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/ | |
| <Brady_M> Vorian: it's a tuffy to find, but an awsome linkage | |
| <Vorian> Brady_M, yep, ive seen it :) | |
| <Brady_M> Vorian: I was thinking that as !screencast for someone needing general help can visually help someone out | |
| <Vorian> !scoobysnack | |
| <ubot3> Factoid scoobysnack not found | |
| <meatballhat> hello party people | |
| <Vorian> hey meatballhat!! | |
| <skippy> hello party person. | |
| <Vorian> hey skippy! | |
| <skippy> aloha | |
| <Vorian> skippy, where do you think a good place to gather in Columbus would be? | |
| <Vorian> for the feisty release? | |
| <skippy> how many attendees, do you think? | |
| <Vorian> i would guess 50+ | |
| <skippy> yowxah. | |
| <Vorian> hehe | |
| <skippy> I don't know any place off the top of my head that would accommodate 50+ without prior scheduling. | |
| <Vorian> some of our team members will most likely be coming with their parents :P | |
| <skippy> I like BW3, but it's almost always busy | |
| <Vorian> Thats what I was thinking | |
| <Vorian> The one on Georgiasville rd is a bit slow | |
| <skippy> I usually do the one on Bethel, or the new one at Graceland. | |
| <meatballhat> hello 'gain :) ... work is heavy these days (sorry) ... | |
| <skippy> we need lots of room; free WiFi; and beer. | |
| <skippy> there's the MoJo Lounge in the Short North... not quite big enough for 50+ | |
| <Vorian> hmm | |
| <Vorian> I'll send out a RSVP so we can determine a location | |
| <Vorian> I was hoping to get something concrete today | |
| <skippy> anyone know python ? | |
| <skippy> never mind | |
| <meatballhat> skippy: does having half a dozen Python books count? | |
| <skippy> not particularly. | |
| <meatballhat> :) | |
| <meatballhat> what do ye need? :) | |
| <Vorian> lol | |
| * meatballhat is smack in the middle of learning Python/Zope | |
| <meatballhat> like a fly in maple syrup... | |
| * Vorian is learning apt | |
| <Vorian> !apt | |
| <ubot3> APT is the Advanced Package Tool, which together with dpkg forms the basic Ubuntu package management toolkit. Short apt-get manual: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptGetHowto - Also see !Synaptic (Gnome) or !Adept (KDE) | |
| <meatballhat> you're braver than I ;-) | |
| <Vorian> ah, thats what apt is :) | |
| <meatballhat> !python | |
| <ubot3> Factoid python not found | |
| <meatballhat> awwwww | |
| <Vorian> ah! | |
| <Vorian> me goes to update | |
| <meatballhat> heehee | |
| <Vorian> python: An interactive high-level object-oriented language (default version). In component main, is important. Version 2.4.3-11ubuntu3 (edgy), package size 37 kB, installed size 208 kB | |
| <meatballhat> Seekker: will you be able to make it to tonight's meeting? | |
| <Seekker> I'm going to do my best ... I'm getting ready to go out on a couple service calls | |
| <meatballhat> gotcha ... hope to see you there :) | |
| <Seekker> thanks ... ;) | |
| <Vorian> !python | |
| <meatballhat> hmmmm | |
| <ubot3> Factoid python not found | |
| <Vorian> !python-#ubuntu | |
| <ubot3> Factoid python-#ubuntu not found | |
| <meatballhat> ubot3 must be sleepy | |
| <meatballhat> Vorian: where the frack is the new Ubuntu site, anyway? | |
| <Vorian> that's what i want to know... | |
| <meatballhat> hrm.... | |
| <Vorian> cja said it was moved up to the th | |
| <Vorian> 5th* | |
| <meatballhat> heehee | |
| * Vorian looks at the calander | |
| <Vorian> calendar* | |
| <meatballhat> so that's 5 as in 15 | |
| <meatballhat> or 30 | |
| <Vorian> haha | |
| <Vorian> well, check out ubuntu forums | |
| <Vorian> there will be on-going changes today | |
| <Vorian> I'm going to take that as an indicator | |
| <meatballhat> I seeeeee | |
| <Vorian> at the very bottom you can select the forum style | |
| <Vorian> oops | |
| <Vorian> wrong channel :? | |
| <Vorian> ;/ | |
| <Vorian> jlsfda | |
| <Vorian> cant type | |
| <meatballhat> you makin' noise?? :D | |
| <Vorian> meatballhat, | |
| <Vorian> I meant to do that here | |
| <meatballhat> htehsuthsehtoas <-- me neeether | |
| <Vorian> now the world of loco will think me a loon | |
| <meatballhat> no worries .... loons are ancient and wise | |
| <skippy> they are? | |
| * Vorian tries to think of something clever | |
| <meatballhat> ancient, yes... wise, questionable :) | |
| <Vorian> lol | |
| <meatballhat> I'm a fan of giant ground sloths, personally .... So .... Huge .... So .... SLLLL....LL...oowwwww | |
| <meatballhat> for being "busy at work," I'm awfully chatty :P (sorry) | |
| <Vorian> :) | |
| <Vorian> since you are mr creative | |
| <Vorian> help me with something | |
| * meatballhat dons cape and mask .... "Mr. Creative to the..." /me trips on cape, falls off skyscraper.... | |
| <Vorian> hehe | |
| <meatballhat> at your service :P | |
| <Vorian> ok keeping with coffe themes | |
| <Vorian> just follow me | |
| <meatballhat> coffee good ... me follow | |
| <Vorian> Ubuntu <insert creative thing here> Roaster | |
| <Vorian> or even | |
| <Vorian> <insert creative thing here> Roaster | |
| <skippy> I only drink decaf. I think that disqualifies me. | |
| <Vorian> lol | |
| <Vorian> I don't even drink coffee | |
| <meatballhat> why hasn't the forum introduced the "Barista" role? | |
| <Vorian> hmmm? | |
| <meatballhat> I get "Master Roaster" ... | |
| <meatballhat> but the Barista... now there's a fancy job | |
| <Vorian> Thats what I am now | |
| <meatballhat> :D | |
| <skippy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_processing | |
| <skippy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_roasting | |
| <Vorian> so ubuntugeek is letting us change our names | |
| <Vorian> from Ubuntu Master Roaster | |
| <Vorian> to something unique | |
| <meatballhat> Monster Roaster | |
| <Vorian> te he | |
| <meatballhat> Grand High Roaster | |
| <meatballhat> H.M.S. Roaster | |
| <Vorian> haha | |
| <Vorian> I'll have to pass that one off to the Brits | |
| <meatballhat> U.S.S. Roaster, then ;) | |
| <Vorian> that might offend people | |
| <Vorian> since we can kill everyone on the planet | |
| <meatballhat> oh yeeeeah | |
| <Vorian> lol | |
| <meatballhat> so you're stuck with the ' Roaster' thing? | |
| <Vorian> I think i am | |
| <Vorian> I am leaning towards | |
| <skippy> why? | |
| <Vorian> Ubuntu Old School Roaster | |
| <skippy> why not use Ubuntu releases to indicate people's participation? | |
| <skippy> start everyone off at Warty Warthog | |
| <Vorian> skippy, there is a guy on the staff who has no boundries | |
| <skippy> Vorian, I don't know what that means. | |
| <meatballhat> like doctors without borders? | |
| <meatballhat> :P | |
| <Vorian> skippy, its for ubuntu forum staff | |
| <Vorian> we can change our own "titles" | |
| <meatballhat> with "Roaster" stuck on the end .... :-/ | |
| <Vorian> presently all staff titles are "ubuntu master roaster" | |
| <skippy> can my title be "tastes like chicken" ? | |
| <Vorian> haha | |
| <meatballhat> skippy: !!! HA!!! | |
| <meatballhat> wonderful | |
| <Vorian> I only have control over mine :( | |
| <skippy> heh. | |
| <skippy> okay. | |
| <skippy> Lunch time. Back later. | |
| <Vorian> eat beer | |
| *** skippy is now known as notskippy | |
| <meatballhat> skippy: laters ... beer... yes | |
| <Vorian> wow | |
| * meatballhat is on South Beach ... no beer .... :P | |
| * Vorian no drinky | |
| <Vorian> meatballhat, who is stephen hedges again? | |
| <meatballhat> chairman for OPLIN | |
| <meatballhat> Ohio Public Libraries Information Network | |
| *** Black5un is now known as ^SuRe[work] | |
| <derspankster> why should I be interested in Feisty? | |
| <Vorian> derspankster, ? | |
| <Vorian> its the next release | |
| <Vorian> bigger badder X | |
| <Vorian> gnome control panel | |
| <derspankster> Yes, that is true, is it badder? | |
| <Vorian> badder as in more awesome | |
| <Vorian> newest version of gnome | |
| <derspankster> will I be able to upgrade?? | |
| <Vorian> sure | |
| <derspankster> don't want to do a clean install | |
| <Vorian> it will be in your update manager when the time comes | |
| <derspankster> I have things working the way I want | |
| <derspankster> Edgy is much faster on my machine than Dapper was | |
| <derspankster> I was just curious as to what the improvements were going to be | |
| <Vorian> lol | |
| <meatballhat> Vorian: you talked to theidiotthatisme at all lately? | |
| <Vorian> not much | |
| <Vorian> just a "hi, how are things" | |
| <meatballhat> right on .... we need to finish up and 'ship' the whole CDs for libraries thing ... I've been out of touch with him for over a week now :( | |
| <Vorian> do you think stephen will show up tonight? | |
| <meatballhat> he said he couldn't, but he reads the logs | |
| <Vorian> ok | |
| <Vorian> how can i make a second or third row of tabs in xchat? | |
| <meatballhat> how are things in the forum these days? I don't frequent them much .... is that even possible (in xchat?) | |
| <Vorian> forums are good :) | |
| <Vorian> I'm getting in more and more channels | |
| <Vorian> and pm's | |
| <Vorian> my screen isn't big enough | |
| <meatballhat> heehee .... I'm spoiled here at work with my Dual Monitors :P | |
| <DM|> sup yall | |
| <Vorian> hey DM| | |
| <meatballhat> ahoy | |
| <DM|> wow servers are down : ( | |
| <Vorian> where? | |
| <DM|> ? | |
| <DM|> World of warcraft | |
| <Vorian> ah | |
| <Vorian> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260092791549 | |
| <Vorian> deal or no deal? | |
| <meatballhat> that's a good deal | |
| <Vorian> I remember when they used to be $700 | |
| * Vorian buys it | |
| <meatballhat> no kiddin' .... good choice | |
| <Vorian> Congratulations, the item is yours. Please pay now! | |
| <meatballhat> happy widescreening to you! | |
| <DM|> nice vorian gratz | |
| <DM|> !gratz | Vorian | |
| <ubot3> Factoid gratz not found | |
| <Vorian> :) | |
| <DM|> !grats | Vorian | |
| <ubot3> Factoid grats not found | |
| <DM|> : ( | |
| <Vorian> it will work well with my 19" dell (2005) | |
| <DM|> did you check to make sure its not cheaper on the dell website?? | |
| * Vorian tries to find crazy graphics card now | |
| <Vorian> DM|, It's way cheaper | |
| <DM|> Vorian hold on | |
| <Vorian> And they don't even make them any more | |
| <DM|> vorian umm | |
| <Vorian> ? | |
| <DM|> vorian ..... 233$ and its newer http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=320-5123 | |
| <Vorian> dm, resoulution is crap on that one | |
| <DM|> ah | |
| <Vorian> I got an ultrasharp | |
| <Vorian> :) | |
| <Vorian> you had me nervous for a sec | |
| <meatballhat> We sell Dell semi-direct, and that's cheaper than our cost - the res, contrast ratio, warranty, connectivity are all better on your model :) | |
| * Vorian has been looking at monitors for a while now | |
| <Vorian> I'm geeked about the dvi | |
| * Vorian dances | |
| * meatballhat wants an E-paper display :P | |
| <DM|> http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineSales/topics/global.aspx/arb/online/en/InventorySearch?c=us&cs=22&l=en&lob=MON&MODEL_DESC=ALL&s=dfh | |
| <DM|> 219$ | |
| <DM|> same model | |
| <Vorian> DM|, 2005FPW is not listed on that page? | |
| <Vorian> brb | |
| <meatballhat> DwyII: seeeester! | |
| <DwyII> Hallo. :3 | |
| <meatballhat> will you be able to make it to tonight's meeting? | |
| <DwyII> Probably. | |
| <meatballhat> *very* awesome | |
| *** vorian_ is now known as Vorian | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o jacobmp92 | |
| *** jacobmp92 changes topic to "Welcome to Ubuntu Ohio! | OFFICIAL meeting tonight at 8pm! | FEISTY is almost here! Where are you going to party? | NEW team goal ~ 200+ members by the LinuxFest! (so get recruiting) | Next stop: The United States of Ubuntu - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/USTeams" | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: -o jacobmp92 | |
| <Vorian> jacobmp92, did you like the chanserv greet? | |
| <jacobmp92> Vorian: nice :) | |
| <Vorian> :) | |
| <Joe_Wiley> hello | |
| <Vorian> lol | |
| <Vorian> that was weird | |
| <meatballhat> goodbye, Dr. Wiley.... until next time </MegaMan> | |
| <Vorian> hehe | |
| *** ^SuRe[work] is now known as Black5un | |
| *** DwyII is now known as DwyII_ | |
| *** DwyII_ is now known as DwyII | |
| <PWill> jacobmp92: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OhioTeam/FeistyParty | |
| <PWill> i made a party wiki page | |
| <PWill> just to get a feel for how many people are interested | |
| <jacobmp92> PWill: added my name :-) | |
| <PWill> !ops | |
| <ubot3> Help! Mez, LjL, elkbuntu, imbrandon, DBO, gnomefreak, Hobbsee, rob, ompaul, Madpilot, Burgundavia, Seveas, CarlK, crimsun, ajmitch, tritium, Nalioth, thoreauputic, apokryphos or tonyyarusso | |
| <PWill> dangit | |
| <jacobmp92> hehe | |
| <PWill> i just want to add it to the topic :( | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o PWill | |
| <PWill> woot | |
| *** PWill changes topic to "Welcome to Ubuntu Ohio! | OFFICIAL meeting tonight at 8pm! | FEISTY is almost here! Where are you going to party? | NEW team goal ~ 200+ members by the LinuxFest! (so get recruiting) | Next stop: The United States of Ubuntu - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/USTeams | Interested in a Feisty Party? Add your name! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OhioTeam/FeistyParty" | |
| <jacobmp92> i'll just add you to the CS access list | |
| <PWill> OK, thanks | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: -o PWill | |
| <PWill> jacobmp92: what resources did you use for learning python? | |
| <jacobmp92> diveintopython.org | |
| <jacobmp92> i downloaded the book | |
| <PWill> thanks | |
| <jacobmp92> :) | |
| <cpradio> anyone ever use 'nc'? |