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<markvandenborre> Seveas, is there any kind of more formal membership for ubuntu-nl.org than mailing list/forum participation?

<Seveas> markvandenborre, currently not

<Seveas> markvandenborre, but that will change :)

<markvandenborre> smurf, elkbuntu, same question for you

<markvandenborre> Seveas, I am thinking of how to imitate the ubuntu membership procedure on a locoteam level

<markvandenborre> I mean, something where sustained dedication == "membership"

<mdke> we've been thinking about implementing an ubuntu-it membership process too

<markvandenborre> mdke, really interested

<mdke> aside from the current "council" membership

<Yann2> euhm.

<Yann2> we're just thinking about giving "official membership" for ubuntu-fr

<Seveas> hehe

<Yann2> but this will be a _very_ restricted group, <10 people

<Yann2> consider these as administrators :)

<mdke> we're thinking about membership for contributors rather than administrators

<mdke> consequences might be email redirects, access to planet ubuntu-it, etc. Similar to regular Ubuntu membership

<markvandenborre> Yann2, <10 people is hardly a restricted group, is it

<markvandenborre> but if they're doing splendid work, why not

<markvandenborre> then they should ask for ubuntu membership

<markvandenborre> I'm rather referring to something local

<Yann2> until now we've always worked with only 3 "loco contacts" and a lot of contributors

<mdke> well. You may see locoteams getting the ability to approve Ubuntu members, eventually

<Yann2> and we're trying to expand that 3-person group :)

<markvandenborre> :)

<mdke> particular for those with approved status and an existing solid process for loco-membership

<markvandenborre> Yann2, I just realised I might have sounded a bit negative

<markvandenborre> that was not at all my goal

<Yann2> no pb ;)

<Yann2> as we have a not for profit in france running for a few months, i think we'll use organisation membership to officialize "membership" in the locoteam

<Yann2> but it's still aimed to very few people... quite difficult do take decisions when too many people are involved

<markvandenborre> Yann2, I'm mostly interested in the criteria for membership, and the process, not so much the formal thing

<mdke> what do you have in mind?

<markvandenborre> mdke, me?

<mdke> yeah, in terms of process/criteria

<Yann2> well, i'd say it's more the time they're involved, and what they've done... people who are involved for more than 2 years for example

<Yann2> we're not really interested in people very, very active but only for a couple of months

<markvandenborre> mdke, I was thinking of mimicking the community council process

<mdke> yes

<markvandenborre> so people create a wiki page with their contributions

<markvandenborre> and their plans for the near future

<markvandenborre> then some others have to bless their dedication with a formal , time limited membership

<markvandenborre> the question is who should do the blessing work

<mdke> I'd suggest either the existing members, or a more limited group, such as a locoteam council

<markvandenborre> I've been tempted to just ask another locoteam

<markvandenborre> or some real ubuntu members from other countries

<mdke> you might have communication issues though. People should be able to do this in their own language

<mdke> you don't have any kind of locoteam council?

<mdke> like people who tend to take the larger decisions?

<markvandenborre> mdke, ubuntu-be has EN as its first language

<markvandenborre> just because of the language issues, this is the only way to go

<markvandenborre> for Belgium, you mean?

<mdke> yes

<markvandenborre> mdke, there are not that many to be taken

<markvandenborre> until now, we have mostly worked on a "just do it" basis

<mdke> right

<markvandenborre> but we feel the need for some more form, we're just growing too big

<markvandenborre> as in: about 200 volunteers

* mdke nods

<markvandenborre> and about 20 people who man fair booths

<markvandenborre> voluntary contributions > 1k€

<markvandenborre> things like that

<markvandenborre> this might give a somewhat bigger impression of what we are and do, but still

<markvandenborre> there's a growing need for strengthening our structure

<markvandenborre> and membership, even if it's not in a formal non-profit yet, is one of the ways to start

<markvandenborre> mdke, in what direction were you thinking about membership for it?

<mdke> well, we have a high level structure already

<mdke> so simply recognition for substantial contributors in the same way as in the international community

<mdke> granting email/planet privileges

<markvandenborre> hm, who decides who is contributing substantially?

<mdke> well, the people who form part of the existing high level structure

<mdke> (https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-it)

<mdke> thoughts?

<markvandenborre> mdke, these memberships don't seem to be time limited...

<markvandenborre> there seem to be only 4 people involved

<markvandenborre> at this level

<mdke> as I said, those are the people who would be taking the decisions, rather than the members themselves

<markvandenborre> ah, and the members themselves?

<mdke> would be in another group. We don't do this yet, it's in the thinking stage

<markvandenborre> what I'm interested in is creating a structure where if I don't do my job as a leader, I ideally step down gracefully

<mdke> well, you can always do that whatever the structure

<mdke> if he wishes, even a dictator can step down gracefully

<mdke> anyhow. We don't have a leader in the -it team, just that "council" you saw

<markvandenborre> but worst case, when I don't do my job, members can ignore me without ubuntu-be.org suffering too much

<markvandenborre> mdke, I see, that's interesting

<mdke> yeah. We had to impose quite a defined structure originally, because the team has a tendency of imploding

<mdke> you can see it described in the wiki page linked from that LP page I posted above

<mdke> it works well though. Although we're considering expanding

<markvandenborre> I'm really ambitious in that I want a structure that reflects dedication and leadership by example even more

<markvandenborre> I'd rather learn from things that went horribly wrong or very well in different locoteams than make mistakes about something that crucial

<mdke> sure

<mdke> well, we think ours works well for our team

<Yann2> ask -de :p

<markvandenborre> Yann2, what is so special about -de?

<markvandenborre> smurf, ?

<Yann2> nope, but they had some stress following the creation of their official structure

<markvandenborre> ah...

<Yann2> it's approx. a year ago, i think these problems are solved now

<markvandenborre> Yann2, url? more info?

<Yann2> mmh, you may ping juliux

<Yann2> or littlepaul

<Yann2> markvandenborre > considering the creation of a formal not for profit organisation, we had something called a "locoteam agreement" from canonical , allowing us to use the name ubuntu

<Yann2> but they made quite clear it should be considered as an "exception" and they were not willing to see locoteams creating not for profits all over the world

<Yann2> it was a year ago now, maybe this has changed

<markvandenborre> ah, it was difficult for them to register a non-profit with the word "Ubuntu" in the name and they had a problem with Canonical because of that... I see

<Yann2> same thing here

<Yann2> in fact we asked togeteher :p

<Rinchen> I asked forgiveness after I did ours. :-)

<Rinchen> Hello Yann and Crazy Classical Guitar Guy

<Yann2> Rinchen > from which locoteams are you?

<Yann2> hello :)

<Rinchen> http://ubuntu-rocks.org

<Rinchen> aka CoLoCo

<Rinchen> Colorado

<Yann2> http://static.ubuntu-de.org/cms/files/00/05/52/agreement.pdf

<mdke> why did you need a non-profit organisation?

<Yann2> mdke > if you want to collect money from companies willing to support you for example

<Rinchen> donations

<mdke> can't you do that without?

<Rinchen> not in my area

<mdke> @ Rinchen

<Yann2> or if you want to buy expensive things, and don't want to do that with your own account

<mdke> hmm. odd

<Rinchen> it's $50 USD to do it so it's not hard

<Yann2> same thing here

<Rinchen> although we have actually executed the paperwork yet.

<Rinchen> We're still deciding how donations fit into our model.

<Rinchen> So far we've been in the 'giving' mode and not 'receiving' except from Canonical/Ubuntu

<Yann2> you received something from canonica?

<markvandenborre> hi Rinchen !

<Rinchen> although our sponsors like System76 help out with SWAG, food, and stuff

<mdke> the difficulty is in ensuring that people can donate confidently to your locoteam without leading them to believe that you are directly associated with Canonical/Ubuntu

<Rinchen> Howdy Mark! I think this is the first I've seen you online since UDS MTV

<Rinchen> mdke: we've made that clear here mostly because I've done it before with other orgs so I know how to frame it.

<mdke> aha

<mdke> Rinchen: btw there is a dud link on your page - support.ubuntu.com doesn't exist

<Rinchen> mdke, really? that went away and you didn't tell me? :-) I'll go have it fixed

<mdke> Rinchen: it has never existed, to my knowledge.

<Rinchen> mdke, yeah, Mitch had it linked a bit ago. Odd. I'll have him change it to http://www.ubuntu.com/support

<Rinchen> thanks for pointing it out

<Yann2> btw markvandenborre , i think it would be a great idea to announce your booths in belgium on ubuntu-fr.org ... we've a lot of belgian users

<mdke> np

<Yann2> i often see an announce on the -be ml, but see nothing in our event forum or such :(

<markvandenborre> Yann2, good to know

<markvandenborre> food, back in 20 minutes

<Yann2> we're thinking of installing some kind of agenda, for events, install partys, boothes, ... etc

<Rinchen> Yann2, have you talked with markvandenborre? We and Og had a similar discussion at UDS MTV.

<markvandenborre> Rinchen, do you have any experience with formalising locoteam membership?

<markvandenborre> (in some way or another)

<markvandenborre> we're really starting to feel a need for that

<markvandenborre> I'm not talking about setting up a non-profit

<Rinchen> mark, I've done it with other non-profit groups but not yet with Colorado.

<Yann2> markvandenborre > in fact, in -fr the members choose themselves who may or may not become a member... :)

<Rinchen> so the specific answer to your question is no but I feel confident I can do it if such a time comes when it's required.

<Rinchen> I used to run a community wireless project and gained my experience that way

<markvandenborre> Rinchen, tell me more about that

<Rinchen> markvandenborre, which part? the wireless project or the member formalization?

<markvandenborre> member formalisation

<Rinchen> Okey dokey. I'll keep the playback simple. We got everyone together, explained what we were doing, and then started a membership database paired with a membership policy. Interestingly, Launchpad provides this as a high level for my loco. We essentially ran the project as a company (because I'm a Project manager and because we had to since we were a non-profit).

<Rinchen> That's the simple version at least.

<markvandenborre> Rinchen, I'd like to see more detail

<markvandenborre> about who decides how

<markvandenborre> someone else becomes a member

<markvandenborre> it's much more about this review process, this "are you dedicated enough to become a member" process

<LordLinux_RD> you talk about , to join to locoteam member ?

<Rinchen> sure Mark. Just keep asking detail and keep going down further. In our wifi project, it was generally open. They had to meet the membership policy and membership qualifications that we set as a group. Our particular format was like Ubuntu - you meet the requirements you are in. However we have a different discussion going on in Ubuntu-land with the Esperanto Translation teams.

<Rinchen> We're setting a higher level of qualifications with a 'show me the body of evidence' before being allowed to participate on the team.

<markvandenborre> ok...

<Rinchen> this is to filter out folks who don't have the necessary up front requirements and keep the quality high.

<markvandenborre> and the people who are already on the inside manage the applications?

<markvandenborre> or a subset of them?

<markvandenborre> or a different group with similar ideals?

<Rinchen> applications, projects/sub-projects, finances, etc.

<Rinchen> just like a normal business

<markvandenborre> let me be more clear...

<markvandenborre> who decides if the requirements in terms of dedication to the good cause are being met?

<markvandenborre> I meant membership applications of course

<Rinchen> There are two ways generally: public vote or membership committee which is a subset of approved people

<Rinchen> in both of my cases, it was a membership committee.

<Rinchen> It's not a personal decision, it's a "did they meet the requirements" decision.

<markvandenborre> of course

<markvandenborre> Rinchen, what would you think about a third way:

<markvandenborre> something like a locoteams council for approval at locoteam level

<Rinchen> you mean like the approval process we discussed at UDS MTV?

<markvandenborre> or a different locoteam looking at the documented dedication of a locoteam member

<markvandenborre> Rinchen, somewhat different, in that it doesn't make people ubuntu members,

<Rinchen> ah, I think I get it now:

<markvandenborre> but just at the locoteam level

<Rinchen> You're after how to approve loco membership not the loco itself.

<markvandenborre> yes...

<Rinchen> My response would be: 1) keep it simple, 2) keep it consistent across all Locos, 3) keep it fair.

<Rinchen> to that end, I'm open on solutions. I like to discuss the solutions first because I make up mind

<markvandenborre> Rinchen, I'm just trying to look at how locoteams are sometimes small

<markvandenborre> and with strong personal bonds amongst members

<markvandenborre> that may in extreme cases fall apart in a rather unhealthy way

<Rinchen> I would expect that the material I described above should work in the majority of cases but it can't account for everything. There might be a need to do something special based upon local laws or strong personalities. Just my opinion.

<markvandenborre> in that kind of scenario, outsiders catapulted into the locoteam membership

<markvandenborre> (local outsiders)

<Rinchen> My own view for Colorado is simple. You want to join? Fantastic! Here's where you sign <Launchpad link>

<markvandenborre> Rinchen, that works when you're relatively small

<Rinchen> are you getting at the Belgium french vs French discussion?

<markvandenborre> not at all

<markvandenborre> no problem at all there

<markvandenborre> I'm just talking # volunteers

<markvandenborre> if you're getting close to 200...

<Rinchen> cross-boarder membership I would think could be easy but I don't have any practical experience with it. I personally would use my standard approach - the more the merrier and then ask for volunteers :-)

<markvandenborre> no, it's not that what I mean

<markvandenborre> I mean:

<markvandenborre> locoteam x is rather inactive; the official members are doing nothing

<markvandenborre> or fighting amongst them, or whatever unproductive activity

<markvandenborre> dedicated local ubuntu people can't get into the circle

<markvandenborre> so they go to a locoteams council thing

<markvandenborre> and ask for recognition of their work promoting ubuntu

<markvandenborre> the locoteams council makes them local members

<markvandenborre> and they start working as a part of the official team

<markvandenborre> Rinchen, see what I mean?

<markvandenborre> does that make sense to you?

<Rinchen> I believe I understand now. This is actually very similar conversation Og and Jono had somewhat privately at UDS (I was there half-way thru to listen in)

<Rinchen> In the case you mentioned Jono can offer mediation services to help fix the root problem.

<Rinchen> which is, fix the loco team.

<markvandenborre> yes, but that's a single point of failure

<Rinchen> True but it's currently the chain of command, as much as there is one around here :-)

<markvandenborre> while the other way round is local people solving local problems, basicly

<Rinchen> I will always vote to fix the leadership problem first unless there is a political reason (e.g. Kurds)

<Rinchen> again, just my opinion. I'm not important. :-)\

<markvandenborre> Rinchen, you do know that I really value your opinion

<Rinchen> aw gosh, you're making me blush. :-)

<markvandenborre> I'm just trying to prepare a meeting in which we will discuss formalising membership somewhat

<Rinchen> Perhaps I'm not stereotypical, but I always go for the simplest solution and if it doesn't work then I make it more robust.

<Rinchen> I find it easier to manage then.

<markvandenborre> you're making a very strong point there

<markvandenborre> I was intuitively feeling something against my own proposed solution, and you just nailed it down

<markvandenborre> elkbuntu, how do you do membership in AU?

<Rinchen> w00t! I just looked at the forcast here.

<Rinchen> http://www.wunderground.com/US/CO/Longmont.html

<Rinchen> we're getting fresh powder :-)

<markvandenborre> heh

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<LordLinux_RD> melissa

<LordLinux_RD> are you there ?

<mdke> LordLinux_RD: you get people's attentions better if you use their nicknames

<LordLinux_RD> ok

<mdke> elkbuntu: ^^

<LordLinux_RD> elkbuntu: are you there ?

<LordLinux_RD> mdke: i need a help , you know any site to download drupal template for ubuntu forom

<LordLinux_RD> forum1

<mdke> drupal isn't forum software... What do you mean?

<LordLinux_RD> mkde: i need to make web site for ubuntu team

<mdke> right

<mdke> what sort of website?

<LordLinux_RD> mkde: like http://www.campamentux.org/

<mdke> there are some Ubuntu drupal themes

<mdke> but that won't provide a forum, just a customisable website

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