| <lophylap> hey folks | |
| <lophylap> jamonation: ping | |
| <lophyla1> wow, there's three of me | |
| *** lophyla1 is now known as lophyte | |
| *** lophyte is now known as lophylap | |
| *** mcmahonm is now known as mcmahonm[A] | |
| <lophylap> evening | |
| <matjan> anybody here with some LaTeX experience? | |
| <dennister> hey pps | |
| <theCore> matjan: yes, why? | |
| <matjan> theCore, do you know of a method to convert a latex file to openoffice? | |
| <theCore> ouch ... | |
| <matjan> i know :) | |
| <theCore> you're best bet would be to convert it to DocBook then import it in Oo.o | |
| <matjan> to docbook? hmmm... what is the command for that? | |
| <theCore> there isn't an obvious to do that | |
| <theCore> maybe TeX4ht could do it: http://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~gurari/TeX4ht/ | |
| <theCore> by the way, why do you want to convert LaTeX to odt? | |
| <theCore> matjan: oh, I found something http://www.wxwidgets.org/wiki/index.php/Tex2RTF | |
| <theCore> Tex to RTF | |
| <theCore> Oo.o can read RTF documents | |
| <matjan> right! | |
| <matjan> conversion... because at school, everyone is in a windoze environment | |
| <theCore> what about pdf... nevermind | |
| <theCore> http://ctan.org/tex-archive/support/tex2rtf/ | |
| <theCore> there we go | |
| <theCore> matjan: ^ | |
| <matjan> pdf... i know, but everybody loves trackchanges in word :s | |
| <theCore> matjan: you should write in plain, then edit with LaTeX | |
| <matjan> theCore, ftp://tug.ctan.org/pub/tex-archive/help/wp-conv/latex2rtf.html | |
| <matjan> yeah, maybe i should have done that | |
| <theCore> personally, I love reStructuredText | |
| <theCore> there's a plain text to Latex converter | |
| <theCore> it's very popular in the Python community and Debian community | |
| <theCore> (the Ubuntu community prefers wikis) | |
| <matjan> alright | |
| <theCore> http://latex2rtf.sourceforge.net/ | |
| <theCore> sudo aptitude install latex2rtf | |
| <theCore> that's easy enough :) | |
| * theCore puts a mental bookmark on this package, just in case ... | |
| <theCore> matjan: latex2rtf is in the repository --^ | |
| <matjan> hmmm... i have it installed already :) | |
| <theCore> matjan: did it work? | |
| <matjan> not very well | |
| <matjan> it screwed up some of the figures | |
| <matjan> but i guess i can manually adjust that | |
| <matjan> and it does not recognize 'tabularx'... | |
| <theCore> well, that is not really surprising | |
| <matjan> yeah... | |
| <Simon80> On Tuesday, Duceppe reiterated his demand for change. He said Harper has an us-versus-them world view that is doomed to fail in Afghanistan. | |
| <Simon80> "He sees everything in black and white," Duceppe said. "Will he stop using these soldiers and put an end to his ideological ideas?" | |
| <Simon80> lol @ ideological ideas | |
| <Simon80> that is all, continue whatever you were doing | |
| <Simon80> lol | |
| <oqp> Simon80 the actual french quote was: "«Le problème avec ce premier ministre, c'est son approche idéologique obtuse qui lui fait voir le monde divisé entre les bons et les méchants, dans un contexte international où les deux seules teintes sont le noir et le blanc», a lâché le chef bloquiste." | |
| <Simon80> go CBC, mange that quote goooood | |
| <oqp> «Va-t-il cesser de se servir des soldats, pour qui j'ai le plus grand respect, aux seules fins de ses visées idéologiques simplistes et réductrices?» | |
| <Simon80> ideological vision? | |
| <oqp> http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20061212/CPACTUALITES/61212191/1019/CPACTUALITES | |
| <oqp> visée is more like "goals" here. | |
| *** Burgundavia__ is now known as Burgundavia | |
| <Madpilot> Burgundavia, did -ca make it to the CC meeting this morning? (missed it, slept in then got phoned to come to work early...) | |
| <tonyyarusso> Madpilot: They want a more fleshed out roadmap | |
| <Burgundavia> Madpilot: yep | |
| <Burgundavia> then we go to Jono | |
| <Madpilot> what, in loco team context, would 'a more fleshed out roadmap' mean? | |
| <Burgundavia> people and things, in more exacting detail | |
| <Madpilot> "Ubuntu Canada exists to consume beer, except in Toronto, where they appear to drink coffee-related beverages. Giant penguins are involved." | |
| <Burgundavia> heh | |
| <tonyyarusso> That is amusing | |
| <Madpilot> Oh, and we'll have to mention that despite being one of the most active sections of Ubuntu Canada, the rest of us regard Ubuntu Toronto with some suspicion, because of course they *are* from Toronto... | |
| <Madpilot> ;) | |
| <oqp> Madpilot here's an idea: could ubunta canada, at least in quebec, pledge to organize something with regards to the free software week ? | |
| <oqp> actually, I might try and make it Canada wide for 2007 - been running for 3 years now in my province. | |
| <Madpilot> oqp, you're in Quebec? | |
| <oqp> yes | |
| <oqp> montreal, with magicfab, sfllaw and the rest of the gang. | |
| <Burgundavia> free software week, when is that? | |
| <oqp> but I'm serious about the Free Software Week pledge. It's mid novembeer. | |
| <tonyyarusso> September? | |
| <oqp> november* | |
| * tonyyarusso is wrong | |
| <tonyyarusso> oh well | |
| <oqp> it was september in 2004, then we settled on the 2nd saturday of november | |
| <Burgundavia> can it be moved to sync with SFD? | |
| <oqp> and the "week" lasts 9 days (two week-ends) | |
| <oqp> Burgundavia no | |
| <Burgundavia> that is a problem | |
| <oqp> we had talks about that for a few year. | |
| <Burgundavia> my focus is on SFD | |
| <oqp> that's not a problem. | |
| <Burgundavia> why can't it be moved | |
| <oqp> why can't sfd move ? | |
| <Burgundavia> because sfd is much bigger than just free software week | |
| <oqp> because it's hard to move a provincial week with over 20 players involved. | |
| <oqp> they don't have to sync, that's what sfd and us agreed on. | |
| <Burgundavia> not with 8 months of lead time | |
| <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: When's sfd? | |
| <Burgundavia> sept 2007 | |
| <oqp> like I said, we've been in talks with sfd since day one. | |
| <tonyyarusso> Ah, so that's what I was thinking of in Sept | |
| <oqp> Burgundavia please, don't tell me how to deal with the free software week. I don't tell you to change a thing. | |
| <oqp> I'm not arguing, just saying it's out there, and been out there for 3 years solid and might help with the roadmap. | |
| <Burgundavia> yes, but basically here is my challenge: we dont' have people for even SFD, let alone something bigger | |
| <Burgundavia> SFD is worldwide and the ubuntu communtiy is better connected worldwide | |
| <oqp> from my point of view, "work" would mostly include passing the word. | |
| <Burgundavia> that is a lot of work | |
| <oqp> Burgundavia stop bringing sfd up please, it's just annoying now. | |
| <Burgundavia> I understand where you are coming from and I understand the free software week has been around for longer | |
| <Burgundavia> I am merely looking at what makes the most sense | |
| <oqp> you can always put it on the road map, 1 year ahead.. | |
| <oqp> and see where that leads. I'm not going to hold it against you, ever :) | |
| <Burgundavia> we should talk about this at the next meeting | |
| <tonyyarusso> What's the reasoning for the scheduleing of fsw, btw? Is it connected to something else, a venue's availability, or something? (Just wondering how you chose it) | |
| <oqp> not a venue, since events happen all over the place. | |
| <oqp> but the sherbrooke university, with gulus, has been having a festival in november for like 12 years. | |
| <oqp> and we sorta synced with them. | |
| <tonyyarusso> ah | |
| <oqp> but since sfd is so important, I am going to give that another try and see if we can sync up. Problem with september is that it's bad for school. | |
| <tonyyarusso> You think so? | |
| <oqp> doesn't really let any time to set up anything. | |
| <tonyyarusso> Personally I find it easier to do stuff at the beginning of a term than when assignments are due and exams are looming | |
| <oqp> to participate, true enough. | |
| <oqp> but to organise something, you'll usually want a couple of months. | |
| <Burgundavia> yes, the eternal conflict of students | |
| <oqp> that's from me experience and the reports I've gotten with the fsw. | |
| <Burgundavia> however, sept is good, because younger students are heading back to school | |
| <oqp> so there, you've convince me to open this pandora's box once again. Hope you're happy :) | |
| <oqp> This is why I am so reluctant to bring up sfd when I talk about the fsw... sync them would alleviate that tension since the questions comes up every year. | |
| <BluesKaj> howdy | |
| <tonyyarusso> hey | |
| <MagicFab> ho | |
| <BluesKaj> up early today :) | |
| <MagicFab> always am, but with the kids/other projects -> ~6AM | |
| <BluesKaj> yup, before retirement my routine was up @ 6:30 AM for the last 15 yrs of my working life | |
| <tonyyarusso> In high school I got up at 5:30 | |
| <BluesKaj> I live in a small town , 15 mins walk from work , so that was convenient | |
| <lophylap> morning all | |
| <tonyyarusso> g'mornin' lophylap | |
| <lophylap> how's it going? | |
| <tonyyarusso> Not too shabby, except for the hour and a half my internet went down earlier | |
| <lophylap> ah, that sucks | |
| <BluesKaj> morning tonyyarusso | |
| <BluesKaj> lophylap | |
| <lophylap> hey BluesKaj | |
| <tonyyarusso> Hey BluesKaj | |
| <tonyyarusso> Say, I had an odd problem a few days ago - anyone run an ftp server? | |
| <lophylap> oh damn, I didn't finish the ubuntu toronto roadmap yet | |
| <lophylap> meeting tonight | |
| <lophylap> *quickly finishes* | |
| <tonyyarusso> I changed one user's $shell to screen, which will run screen dash, instead of just dash, but then they couldn't connect to secure ftp. | |
| <MagicFab> tonyyarusso, saw your comment about translating ubuntu | |
| <tonyyarusso> MagicFab: Yeah, that'll be really cool if it works | |
| <MagicFab> tonyyarusso, we may share some tips, we have a similar project in ubuntu-co | |
| <tonyyarusso> MagicFab: I would love tips. I pretty much have no idea what I'm doing and just think it would be fun. | |
| <MagicFab> for Wayuu, a native language in the Guajira ragion | |
| <tonyyarusso> MagicFab: Saw the "Crazy ideas I have started" on the bottom of Corey's wiki page, and it grew from there. | |
| <MagicFab> And of course I should we were inspired exactly by Corey's project for inuktitut | |
| <MagicFab> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuInWayu | |
| <tonyyarusso> Here's what I see as the biggest challenge: | |
| <tonyyarusso> For other languages, say French, the translation has been a matter of there being a bunch of French people using Ubuntu that were like "hey, let's translate this, 'cause we think it's pretty cool" | |
| <tonyyarusso> For these sorts of things, the target market barely even uses computers, much less Linux or Ubuntu. | |
| <tonyyarusso> Getting it into their language, and being the first OS (or one of) would be a hug incentive towards getting them to be comfortable with it, and therefore using it. | |
| <tonyyarusso> Aww, he left... | |
| <MagicFab> laptop battery died | |
| <tonyyarusso> ah | |
| <tonyyarusso> Anyway, continuing | |
| <tonyyarusso> Getting it into their language, and being the first OS (or one of) would be a hug incentive towards getting them to be comfortable with it, and therefore using it. | |
| <tonyyarusso> But, in order to do that I have to do a couple of things: | |
| <tonyyarusso> 1) Find speakers | |
| <tonyyarusso> 2) Explain to them what on earth this is for | |
| <tonyyarusso> 3) Teach them how to do the process, or make the proper connections between the actual translators and those with the technical skills to input the data, with multiple steps if necessary (likely) | |
| <tonyyarusso> Wait, | |
| <tonyyarusso> 2.5) Convince them it's worth their time and effort | |
| <tonyyarusso> 2.6) If possible (also likely) convince gov't and/or organizations that we deserve a portion of their native language development funding | |
| <tonyyarusso> 4) Start doing the actual work | |
| <tonyyarusso> It's different from other stuff in that the translators aren't pulled from our existing user base. | |
| <tonyyarusso> MagicFab: You have any thoughts on that? | |
| <MagicFab> tonyyarusso, plenty - we are the enablers | |
| <tonyyarusso> MagicFab: Spill - I could use some braindumps to mull over | |
| <MagicFab> tonyyarusso, can't chat much right now (working, u know) :) | |
| <tonyyarusso> MagicFab: Ah, right. Later then :) | |
| <MagicFab> I linked to Corey's page. so have u put anything on the wiki ? I would start with what u wrote ^^^ | |
| <tonyyarusso> very very little so far | |
| <tonyyarusso> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOjibweTranslators | |
| <tonyyarusso> Basically a placeholder as it stands | |
| <tonyyarusso> I'm _hoping_ to put some significant work in on it over the holidays, and get my first formal announcement out to potential translators at the absolute latest by the end of next semester, depending on how things go, preferably in January or February of course. | |
| <tonyyarusso> Another _major_ issue we have is that the language is very seriously split into dialects, and Rosetta does not yet have any system for dealing with that. | |
| <BluesKaj> had to 3 finger salute ... xmule is unstable so I removed it | |
| <BluesKaj> trying to DL some videos for my grandchildren ...I have them on vhs but my son doesn't own a vcr. | |
| <BluesKaj> This version is a testing version, updated daily, and | |
| <BluesKaj> we give no warranty it won't break anything, burn your house, | |
| <BluesKaj> or kill your dog. But it *should* be safe to use anyway. | |
| <MagicFab> tonyyarusso, linked to your wiki from the Wayu pag | |
| <tonyyarusso> MagicFab: Cool | |
| <tonyyarusso> I should get links to yours and Inuktitut on there | |
| <tonyyarusso> I wonder if there's a category they could belong to | |
| <MagicFab> yeah, so anyone with more slack than us can gather most info | |
| <ejer> is there an ubuntu-mtl? | |
| <tonyyarusso> ejer: mtl? | |
| <ejer> you know, the other big city in canada? | |
| <ejer> ;) | |
| <tonyyarusso> Ah, Montreal! | |
| <ejer> oui oui | |
| <ejer> there is ubuntu-qc | |
| <tonyyarusso> ejer: Sorry, I haven't gone to bed yet, so you'll have to excuse my mental capacity to process abbreviations | |
| <ejer> hehe no prob | |
| <MagicFab> ubuntu-mtl is essentially ubuntu-qc which is essentially me these days :) | |
| <ejer> alright! | |
| <ejer> you and me Fab | |
| <MagicFab> well, ok, and a few others | |
| <ejer> there is not a french speaking ubuntu group? | |
| <ejer> in qc I mean | |
| <MagicFab> seriously, it's kind of stalled but there is a mailing list that comes alive from time to time | |
| <ejer> right | |
| <tonyyarusso> It's alive!!!! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa | |
| <MagicFab> I'm always on #ubuntu-qc too - it will take some time to get people there thouh | |
| <ejer> ah | |
| <ejer> will go hop on | |
| <MagicFab> if you're interested, a few guys from the canonical support office are supporting my InstallFest mania :) and other events we wantto get going | |
| <MagicFab> (moving this to #ubuntu-qc) :) | |
| * tonyyarusso is all alone again | |
| <lophylap> jamonation: ping | |
| <MagicFab> Burgwork, so what do I need to get those system76 stickers ? I sent a SASE a while ago, no news | |
| <BluesKaj> what bit torrent client is best in (k)ubuntu ..I'm using azureus , but it seems to stall and lose conns frequently ...any suggestions ? | |
| <ejer> azureus | |
| <ejer> make sure your ports are configures right | |
| <lophylap> i like azureus | |
| <ejer> there is a ton of tweaking you can do | |
| <ejer> but be aware that sometimes you will not get great speed... torrents can be flaky | |
| <BluesKaj> my ports are all configged fine ...assigned everything on the router with the proper TCP and UDP ports, but the thing is still not working right , even tho it says the NAT etc are all ok | |
| <ejer> what is working right? | |
| <ejer> it will not run at full speed all the time... | |
| <ejer> if you have a less than popular torrent, or the tracker is refusing you for instance | |
| <ejer> also the ubuntu package is unstable IMO | |
| <ejer> I downloaded the package straight off azuresu.sf.net | |
| <ejer> you know you have to open 2 ports for normal operation, and then another UDP for decentralized tracker? | |
| <ejer> have you enabled the other networks? Encrypted communication? | |
| <ejer> is the UPNP plugin opening it's own ports? | |
| <ejer> azureus has lots of options :) | |
| <BluesKaj> what's UPNP? | |
| <ejer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPNP | |
| <BluesKaj> what gives : ? /home/user/.local/share/Trash/files/xawtv-3.95/arch-i686-linux/config.log ...won't trash this file ! | |
| <ejer> try with sudo rm | |
| <nothlit> Theres UPnP for linux? | |
| <ejer> good question... I assumed it was built into azureus.... | |
| <ejer> I think it should work... | |
| <ejer> it is just packets sent out to gateway devices AFAIU | |
| <ejer> http://linux-igd.sourceforge.net/ | |
| <ejer> it is implemented on the gateway side so yes, it should work same as in windows | |
| <lophylap> heya defrex0 | |
| <lophylap> Burgwork: can you toss an announcement in the topic for the ubuntu toronto meeting tonight? | |
| <lophylap> or maybe -t? | |
| <Burgwork> hmm, how do I do that? | |
| <ejer> slash topic "topic" | |
| <ejer> anyone can do it I think | |
| <BluesKaj> ok , dumped azureus.. the new version of KTorrent is much more stable and it stays connected ...YES! | |
| <ejer> does ktorrent have distributed DB? | |
| <BluesKaj> its' in the pkg sources | |
| *** oqp` is now known as oqp | |
| <Burgwork> ejer: nah, change to -t | |
| <ejer> do you mean +t | |
| <Burgwork> indeed | |
| <Burgwork> I find IRC needlessly arcane | |
| <ejer> http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml | |
| <ejer> slash mode +t | |
| <Burgwork> that is utterly useless | |
| <ejer> hehe it helped me | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Burgwork | |
| *** Burgwork sets mode: -t | |
| *** Burgwork sets mode: -o Burgwork | |
| <nothlit> IRC is great for support channels | |
| <Burgwork> yes, it is | |
| <BluesKaj> linux is needlessly arcane ... the nomenclature of terms, usage and definitions seem to be deliberately made obscure to impress the noobs :0 | |
| <BluesKaj> we noobs :) | |
| <BluesKaj> how now holycow :) | |
| <nothlit> what about distros like linspire | |
| <ejer> linux is perfectly arcane, you gotta want it | |
| <holycow> hola | |
| <BluesKaj> linspire=linuxlite | |
| <holycow> actually BluesKaj thats wrong | |
| <ejer> have you guys ever seen pclinuxos? | |
| <holycow> the inverse is true | |
| <BluesKaj> yup, pclinux sucks | |
| <ejer> linspire is inversely proportional to linuxlite | |
| <holycow> users have been taught and thoroughly trained and brainwashed by microsoft and apple into beliiving that it is perfectly acceptable to be an iidiot | |
| <holycow> according to the capitalist mantra it is perfectly acceptable to keep on paying out to retain your ignorance | |
| *** lophylap changes topic to "Ubuntu Canada LocoTeam | http://www.ubuntu-ca.org/ | WikiPage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CanadianTeam | Please see #ubuntu-fr for support in French | Ubuntu Toronto Meeting Tonight! December 13th, 6:30pm, linuxcaffe. http://linuxcaffe.ca/" | |
| <ejer> I just think they have been taught that the windows way is the easy way, when in fact it is much harder to most things in windows, people are just used to it | |
| <holycow> if everyone was brought up on unix/linux people would look at apple and ms as trinkets | |
| <BluesKaj> whoa ...what did we disturb here | |
| <holycow> the problem of course is that once a behaviour is set you cannot change it | |
| <ejer> indeed | |
| <holycow> thus the perception that the status quo is correct ... where infact the behavioural analysis shows us otherwise | |
| <ejer> and so linux ends up copying the way MS does things so that users will find it easier | |
| <holycow> *nod* | |
| <BluesKaj> as a windows user as well , i find the the MS Snobs almost as silly as the linux one s :) | |
| <ejer> all snobs are silly | |
| <holycow> i haven't ever run into a linux snob | |
| <holycow> the thing about linux is that its impossible to be a snob | |
| <BluesKaj> really ? | |
| <ejer> hmm ;) | |
| <BluesKaj> where have you guys been ? | |
| <ejer> maybe strongly opinionated is a better term | |
| <holycow> the reason is that everything is completely open, snobbery is always trumped by looking at source by those that know | |
| <holycow> *nod* | |
| <holycow> thing is | |
| <ejer> and in general I think linux users are more inclusive than snobbish | |
| <holycow> linux guys can't actually say x is better | |
| <holycow> if x actually sucks, well you can see that it sucks | |
| <holycow> i don't think so at all ... it seems that way | |
| <holycow> but it seems that way to windows users for the previous reasons i noted | |
| <holycow> mostly i would say it ends up being a culture clash | |
| <ejer> linux is of course only a part of this | |
| <ejer> the open source world has cozied up to windows | |
| <holycow> ms and apple are marketplace driven, users pay to have their problem solved | |
| <holycow> they expect treatment on a silver platter for every dime they spend | |
| <BluesKaj> well the kubuntu crowd is a better and less snobby bunch than some of the other didtro support rooms | |
| <holycow> in open source its the opposite | |
| <holycow> the user is expected to engage them selves, and learn and expand their knowledge | |
| <holycow> in short rtfm | |
| <ejer> how are new users to know this? | |
| <holycow> those two approaches are mutually exclusive | |
| <holycow> ejer, how is a child to know they haveto learn? | |
| <ejer> and can you really expect that from everyone? | |
| <ejer> don't we all have different motivations? | |
| <holycow> all kids are born with a natural 'sponge' ... i'm not sure where that sponge goes when we grow up | |
| <ejer> some people like the cost, some like the freedom... | |
| <holycow> ejer, well its open source and mostly free | |
| <holycow> as such yes | |
| <ejer> but maybe they just like the fact that it is not MS | |
| <holycow> unless someone pays for ubuntu, how the hell can they expect to be serviced as if it they paid for it? | |
| <ejer> I am just saying you have to play on their level | |
| <holycow> i get where you are going *nod* | |
| <BluesKaj> it's surprising for a windows user like me to be treated as a some kind of traitor who should know better when i first began exploring Linux | |
| <ejer> payment can come in forms other than payment | |
| <ejer> than money I mean | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, sure, microsoft users generally tend to forget the great evil that ms is | |
| <ejer> if people participate in community, then I would expect they could get support in return | |
| <holycow> i don't hate ms or ms people at all for example they are very bright and smart | |
| <holycow> but man | |
| <holycow> have they ever done anything to help anyone? | |
| <holycow> just look at the novel thing | |
| <ejer> it is like munchausen syndrome :) | |
| <ejer> sic | |
| <holycow> they sign a deal and the next day balmer is stabbing them in the back | |
| <BluesKaj> holycow, they don't know about that attitude | |
| <ejer> loving your abuser | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, precisely | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, that is the essence of this community | |
| <holycow> once you get hooked on freedom | |
| <holycow> and once you get that 'learning' is goddamned fun | |
| <BluesKaj> so you can't treat them as evil or stupid for that matter | |
| <holycow> soaking up knowledge is a thrill. thus everyone here knows about ms shenaningans | |
| <holycow> in the other world they don't | |
| <ejer> I maintain that the quality of software is better across the board pretty much, let alone freedom | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, i don't think i would say that i do, i would think tho that it is unfair that ms users think that somehow i should set aside what i know about ms | |
| <holycow> if ms is evil ms is evil, helping them is stabbing my friend in the back | |
| <holycow> ms users expecing me to forget my friends needs is wrong | |
| <ejer> just always end your sentences with 'of course this would never have happened if you were running Ubuntu" | |
| <holycow> ejer, sure, and i wouldn't say that everyone should really engage in politics either | |
| <holycow> i'm just suggesting is that ms users come in 'with a huge set of expectations' | |
| <BluesKaj> blame bill gates marketing genius ...it's a fact of life ... I never used any kind of KB till 1983 and then it was merely a integrator for an analytical instrument i was using in my job ..."computers" are still MS windows to most ppl. | |
| <holycow> and they don't even do the littlest bit of googling to understand the overal reasons for open source even existing | |
| <holycow> they don't even approach us with humbleness and an open mind | |
| <holycow> instead they tell us how to behave | |
| <ejer> I get blamed when people can't find a button in openoffice | |
| <ejer> hehe | |
| <holycow> and they approach us with their hands open | |
| <ejer> "well, you told me to use this!" | |
| <holycow> as if somehow we should work for free and they shouldn' lift a finger | |
| <holycow> ejer, heh | |
| <ejer> even though there is an integrated help guide located in same spot as in windows | |
| <holycow> at the bottom of the barrel | |
| <holycow> at really really theeee end of the day | |
| <BluesKaj> most ppl don't wanna know why they just wanna know which keys to press and what directions to follow to arrive at a certain point | |
| <holycow> this stuff is free | |
| <holycow> it is absolutely insulting for ms windows users not to try to help out and expect everything for nothing | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, that is also correct | |
| <holycow> *nod* | |
| <ejer> turn it around | |
| <BluesKaj> ge thx :) | |
| <holycow> infact that is about 95% of all furstration with any change in software | |
| <holycow> we have just finished a pilot | |
| <ejer> say you will not help windows users unless they dual boot | |
| <holycow> and it turns out | |
| <holycow> people don't learn software | |
| <holycow> they memorize the locations of icons visually | |
| <holycow> swear to god | |
| <ejer> I believe it | |
| <holycow> that what people complain about when they complain about software | |
| <BluesKaj> most ms windows users don't care | |
| <holycow> their mental map of where the icons are has changed | |
| <ejer> they care when they can't boot up | |
| <holycow> they spent 15 years memorizing windows | |
| <holycow> now they haveto memorize something new | |
| <holycow> and frankly i get it | |
| <holycow> that is a lot of work | |
| <holycow> i don't know how to solve it but if there was a way to teach them how to learn, how to use tools in a more generalized way | |
| <holycow> that would really rock | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, see thats the other thing | |
| <ejer> it is called critical thinking | |
| <ejer> working things out for yourself | |
| <holycow> 'most windows users don't care' | |
| <holycow> well guess what? | |
| <holycow> linux doesn't exist to take market share away from ms | |
| <holycow> sec... | |
| *** defrex0 is now known as ucuuntu | |
| <ejer> it exists to take market share from apple? | |
| <ejer> O:-) | |
| <holycow> the thing that 'really' ticks me off | |
| <holycow> is that windows users expect that we are really going after ms | |
| <holycow> oh and get this | |
| <holycow> were doing this for free | |
| <holycow> wtf? | |
| <holycow> well guess what bub | |
| <BluesKaj> holycow, that's been my experience with most ppl who have pcs ...they just want it to work and don't care how ..noy interested in figuring out why and how | |
| <holycow> sec | |
| <ejer> but what is for free? I get paid for what I do, so do lots of linux peoples | |
| <ucuuntu> is it better to use the icons on the top bar or on the bottom near the trash bin? | |
| <ejer> ucuuntu: do you mean where you place your icons? | |
| <ucuuntu> no the bar itself with the menus that pop out of it | |
| <ucuuntu> ... just curious | |
| <ejer> it should by default be on top | |
| <ejer> the bottom bar shows what programs are open | |
| <ucuuntu> cause i know ibms are on the bottom and apples are on the top so i couldnt tell if my install was wrong or not | |
| <BluesKaj> oh BTW i have a question about this :Access denied, /home/kaj/.local/share/Trash/files/xawtv-3.95/arch-i686-linux/config.log | |
| <ejer> Applications : Places : System should be on top | |
| <ejer> but you can change this | |
| <ucuuntu> will it affect performance? i have an ibm | |
| <BluesKaj> trying to delete xawtv ...but access is denied | |
| <ejer> ucuuntu: no | |
| <ejer> BluesKaj: use sudo rm /home/kaj/.local/share/Trash/files/xawtv-3.95/arch-i686-linux/config.log | |
| <ucuuntu> cool.. is there a program to let me play photshop on linuxes | |
| <ejer> ucuuntu: it is already installed | |
| <ucuuntu> whats it called? i cant find it | |
| <ejer> applications>graphics>GIMP Image Editor | |
| <ejer> http://docs.gimp.org/ | |
| <ejer> for documentation | |
| <BluesKaj> gawd ejer , thx ...i should have known that :) | |
| <ucuuntu> can i submit gimp stuff to flikr, cause thats what i need to do! | |
| <ejer> ucuuntu: you just save it as jpg | |
| <BluesKaj> bbl | |
| <ejer> it is a full image editor like photoshop | |
| <ucuuntu> ok i saved it as a jpg now how to do it? | |
| <ejer> go to flickr and hit upload | |
| <ucuuntu> ok | |
| <ucuuntu> awsome thank you | |
| <ejer> my pleasure | |
| <nothlit> most computer users don't actually read anything on the display, it amazes me they know how to use them at all | |
| <ejer> most people read almost nothing on their screens beyond email, and most don't read more than the first line of that it seems | |
| <ucuuntu> is there a way to remove the histories from my programs cause i looked at porno and my mom might see | |
| <ejer> hehe | |
| <ucuuntu> specifically internet programs | |
| <ucuuntu> its not funny im serious | |
| <ejer> like firefox you mean? | |
| <ucuuntu> i used the one with the fire icon | |
| <nothlit> firefox has a delete private data dialog | |
| <ejer> Tools>Clear Private Data | |
| <ejer> while in Firefox | |
| <ucuuntu> and this will delete my pornos? | |
| <ejer> which is the flaming blue thing | |
| <ucuuntu> on mine its red | |
| <nothlit> its not iceweasel | |
| <ejer> yes, the red and blue globe icon | |
| <ucuuntu> thats it!!! | |
| <ejer> ucuuntu: you could also make another user for you or momn | |
| <ucuuntu> ok.. i think i did it | |
| <nothlit> System -> Administration -> Users and Groups | |
| <ejer> thank you | |
| <ucuuntu> except im keeping one of my pornos cause its really cool | |
| <ejer> haha lol | |
| <ucuuntu> shi#$ i think i just deleted my c | |
| <ejer> why do I think I am talking to a l33t hax0r | |
| <ucuuntu> lol | |
| <ucuuntu> sorry, how could i resist | |
| <ucuuntu> thanks for the porno tips ;) | |
| <ejer> anytime | |
| <ejer> check out pornoview | |
| <ejer> http://packages.debian.org/unstable/utils/pornview | |
| <ejer> haha | |
| <ejer> chow | |
| <holycow> back | |
| <holycow> sorry to continue last thought the basic thing is that linux doesn't exist to serve them | |
| <holycow> not at the root level anyway | |
| <holycow> if they want to be serviced pay for it, just don't walk into a free distro expecting something unreasonable | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, my experience is not that actually | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, as i stated before, my experience is that users are trained wrong. they are trained to have the wrong expectations and thus end up with the wrong results | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, as a side point, there is NO SUCH THING as IT JUST WORKS | |
| <nothlit> They can't break their concept of software /and demanding stuff though | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, there is maybe IT JUST WORKS WITHIN THESE SET OF PARAMETERS | |
| <holycow> the issue with it just works is that every single user modifies the parameters of that definition with each purchase | |
| <holycow> and that is directly caused by being taught that it is okay to be a consumer and not haveto learn how to use the tool | |
| <holycow> infact | |
| <holycow> i see a whooooooooole lot of windows users that are unhappy with it | |
| <holycow> for that particular reason | |
| <nothlit> people don't understand that linux is different either, they expect that everything they want works and is available | |
| <holycow> nothlit, *nod* my hope is to someday put together a site or add to the ubuntu wiki | |
| <holycow> and break down some of these user land issues into its constituent components | |
| <holycow> we cannot service the users without understand at the root level why they behave the way they do | |
| <holycow> once we understand why certain attitudes exist we can start to classify those attitudes and expectations | |
| <holycow> once we classify them we can treat them the same way a doctor treats a desease | |
| <holycow> slowly and patiently | |
| <holycow> :) | |
| <nothlit> I remember there was someone in #ubuntu complaining the the ubuntu-server disc is crap because it wasn't the main thing supported by ubuntu and he wanted a graphical tool for everything, with it all automagically installed and configured | |
| <holycow> lol exactly | |
| <nothlit> even after explaining how linux works, and the advantages of console only, and why ubuntu made the server disc | |
| <holycow> right | |
| <holycow> once a behaviour / belief is set into a person | |
| <holycow> there is no way in hell in changing it | |
| <holycow> even if the person realizes they are wrong they will hold onto it | |
| <holycow> however | |
| <holycow> just because a person goes back to windows that doesn't mean we lost a potential user | |
| <ejer> you can change them, but they need it drilled into their head, and have a compelling self-interest in doing it | |
| <holycow> there is a certain elasticity to human behaviour, and its mostly due to lazyness | |
| <holycow> people tend to forget things over time and overlook lots of their own foibles | |
| <holycow> its possible to massage the user opinion over a long period of time, but not a short period of time | |
| <ejer> we taught people to not open attachments, but now they click on phishing links | |
| <holycow> ejer, thats another way too, yes i agree | |
| <nothlit> lol but he knew windows server 2003 didn't cover what he wanted either | |
| <holycow> i fall into that category infact | |
| <ejer> you click on phishing links? | |
| <nothlit> and he refused to look at the complete prepackaged linux distros for that sort of thing (with a web interface) | |
| <holycow> i did bitch and moan when i first started with suse ... i remember distinctly thining how the hell can anyone use this crap | |
| <holycow> then eventually a light went on and it turned out i was wrong | |
| <ejer> I think everyone should start on gentoo | |
| <ejer> so it is all downhill from there | |
| <nothlit> and just kept saying ubuntu server was crap | |
| <holycow> ejer, heh | |
| <nothlit> actually i learned more on ubuntu than gentoo | |
| <ejer> interesting... | |
| <nothlit> i think gentoo was survival and ubuntu was learning | |
| <nothlit> very different methods of retaining/storing/using that info | |
| <ejer> yes | |
| <oqp> I started on slackware, 1995... | |
| <ejer> I learned most that I know on gentoo | |
| <ejer> oqp: me too, around then, but never got it installed :) | |
| <oqp> but then I let go for a few years until I found debian in 2000 and stuck to that ever since. | |
| <nothlit> I recompile gentoo several times (so a few weeks) when i first installed it until i realised i did needed to configure xorg lol.. i was told the handbook was god and it didn't tell me anything about it.. i installed the binaries from the package cd and everything but i had to pore through all the documentation guides before i figured that out | |
| <ejer> the handbook explains this | |
| <ejer> you do have to be thorough the first 50 times or so | |
| <nothlit> well i don't think it did when i read it | |
| <ejer> perhaps not | |
| <ejer> it is split off to it's own section http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xorg-config.xml | |
| <nothlit> ejer, yeah not in the handbook, in the documentation section under Desktop Documentation | |
| <nothlit> I didn't even know what an X server did, but I installed kde and I thought it would work | |
| <nothlit> after that I used gentoo for about 2 years though | |
| <ejer> yes | |
| <ejer> it is in handbook, http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=1&chap=12 | |
| <ejer> it is considered post-install | |
| <ejer> since X is not what everyone wants | |
| <nothlit> lol it isn't in the handbook, its just a link to desktop documentation in general | |
| <ejer> yes, but where is that link? In the handbook! | |
| <nothlit> ejer, anyways, not trashing gentoo, just could be potentially confusing | |
| <ejer> hehe | |
| <ejer> oh it is definitely confusing | |
| <nothlit> I thought it was something i did wrong | |
| <ejer> serious reading | |
| <nothlit> since people told me gentoo install was so advanced | |
| <ejer> I have read every section of every doc on there | |
| <nothlit> Same | |
| <nothlit> a few years ago | |
| <ejer> advanced = configurable, not easy | |
| <nothlit> It wasn't tho, just didn't config xorg tho lol | |
| <ejer> yep | |
| <nothlit> Nah the install doesn't have to be hard, probably merging config files == a lot harder, especially if you don't know what every single one on your system does. | |
| <ejer> gentoo does have an easy install system though | |
| <ejer> you just get the livecd - they have gui | |
| <ejer> similar to ubuntu's actually | |
| <nothlit> lol now, but it isn't the official install method yet is it? | |
| <ejer> no, never will be | |
| <ejer> I hope | |
| <ejer> gentoo is not meant to be newbie-friendly necessarily unless they want to get their hands dirty | |
| <ejer> there are gentoo distros for easier install like RR4 | |
| <oqp> ejer, ever tried ututo ? | |
| <ejer> oqp: I did download it... | |
| <ejer> I don't think I tried it yet | |
| <oqp> south american, started based of gentoo I think. | |
| <oqp> but binary... | |
| <ejer> one of the only 'free' distros | |
| <ejer> according to FSF | |
| <oqp> yup | |
| <ejer> yes, that is why I did not try it, gentoo based means I can make my system like that anyways | |
| <ejer> but it did seem like a cool project | |
| <oqp> they have their own online radio :) | |
| <ejer> nice | |
| <ejer> I used to do that | |
| <ejer> back in early days of shoutcast | |
| <BluesKaj> what is basis that constitutes the diff between gentoo based and debian based distros, or any other distros for that matter | |
| <BluesKaj> ? | |
| <holycow> package manager essentially | |
| <holycow> on top of that philosophical approach to understanding/viewing how software should be put together/work | |
| <BluesKaj> ok, what about code ? | |
| <ejer> gentoo = source based distro | |
| <holycow> basically package manager | |
| <ejer> there are many differences | |
| <holycow> all else is mostly the same | |
| <ejer> kernel is different | |
| <BluesKaj> source based means ? | |
| <ejer> you compile every program yourself | |
| <holycow> all distros have basically the exact same software + patches and minor modifications | |
| <holycow> there are a group of distros dedicated to specific workloads and such | |
| <BluesKaj> kernel is different in what manner? | |
| <holycow> those tend to have very very very customized kernels and subsystems, as well as very specific applications on them | |
| <ejer> gentoo maintains their own kernel | |
| <ejer> as do most distros | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, mostly the kernels aren't THAT much different | |
| <oqp> popularity, documentation and community are all important aspects too. | |
| <ejer> hehe depends what you call different | |
| <ejer> for instance, you may have file systems supported in gentoo not in other distros | |
| <holycow> right right | |
| <holycow> i agree | |
| <oqp> hey, that reminds me | |
| <holycow> nobody really customizes a kernel | |
| <oqp> xen presentation tomorrow night for anyone interested | |
| <holycow> what they do is take a vanilla kernel | |
| <ejer> reiser4 has been in gentoo for years | |
| <holycow> and use the kernel options for including/excluding features | |
| <ejer> and add patches | |
| <holycow> and maybe apply patchs to the kernel for security and such | |
| <holycow> right | |
| <BluesKaj> I had the impression, rightly or wrongly that the kernel was written with different language code ...or am I all wet ? | |
| <oqp> in Montreal : http://facil.qc.ca/Pr%C3%A9sentationsMensuelles/2006-12-14 | |
| <ejer> no, same base kernel | |
| <holycow> so its not really custom as much as its modified by virtue of using th emodularity built into the kernel anyway | |
| <BluesKaj> ok | |
| <ejer> sure, it is 'prepatched' I guess | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, its just c | |
| <oqp> see, linus doesn't allow every patch in the official kernel | |
| <holycow> which is what most of gnome is written in | |
| <holycow> a lot of things like the gcc are written in c | |
| <oqp> but they are out there, and distros are known to make use of them directly. | |
| <holycow> kde is in c++ | |
| <holycow> other apps in various languages | |
| <holycow> what oqp is true too that does happen | |
| <BluesKaj> so why is gentoo so difficult ...I understand it's a bitch to install | |
| <oqp> gnn and gnome are c to be portable, not really because of the kernel's language. | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, its for advanced users | |
| <ejer> gentoo is simple once you now some basics | |
| <holycow> its not meant for a windows noob | |
| <ejer> but takes a while to get there | |
| <oqp> there is also debian from scratch | |
| <holycow> its meant for a power user that wants EXTREMELY granular control of the distro | |
| <oqp> if you want something closer to ubuntu. | |
| <ejer> yes | |
| <holycow> in other words, you gotta know your shit | |
| <ejer> and know what you want | |
| <BluesKaj> ok, no hand holding compiling the various partd :) | |
| <BluesKaj> parts | |
| <ejer> oh no, it helps a lot with compiling | |
| <oqp> for a binary program, you have the options of including support for this or that library. | |
| <ejer> you don't really need to know much about compilation | |
| <oqp> the source gives you all the choices, but when it'S a binary distro the packager has to choose. | |
| <oqp> or offer sub-packages | |
| <ejer> this is key | |
| <ejer> configurability | |
| <ejer> portage is incredibly powerful | |
| <BluesKaj> binaries have me a bit baffled | |
| <oqp> baffling binaries? | |
| <BluesKaj> hehe | |
| <holycow> whats the problem with binaries? | |
| <oqp> sounds like something Robin would say to batman ;) | |
| <BluesKaj> holylinux batman | |
| <oqp> seriously, what's the problem? | |
| <ejer> I have some stupid piece of hardware beeping every hour or so, and I can't figure out what it is!!! | |
| <holycow> i had that on a mobo | |
| <holycow> had to replace it | |
| <ejer> it has been going on for like a wek now | |
| <oqp> ejer you need 3-4 mics | |
| <BluesKaj> no problem , i just don't know what to do with them when i see the option to DL and install abinary | |
| <oqp> and triangulate | |
| <ejer> triangulate it | |
| <ejer> hehe | |
| <holycow> BluesKaj, oh your actually misunderstanding what a binary is | |
| <holycow> you are thinking an .exe is a binary | |
| <holycow> its not actually | |
| <ejer> hmm | |
| <ejer> it is actually, no? | |
| <holycow> the binary is 'inside' the exe, exe is the packaging installer | |
| <holycow> similarly on linux | |
| <BluesKaj> actually i have no idea | |
| <holycow> a .deb is not a binary per se | |
| <oqp> binary, we mean executable in fact. | |
| <holycow> the binary is inside a .deb, .deb is basically just a zip file with some instructions for the package manager where to copy files to | |
| <ejer> basically binary and program are interchangeable words | |
| <ejer> a binary is a compiled program | |
| <BluesKaj> binary to me always meant 2 of something ...coming from a chem background | |
| <holycow> i really really really need to put up a wiki page on this | |
| <holycow> i've explained this now hundreds of times | |
| <holycow> :) | |
| <ejer> I have never been asked be4 :) | |
| <holycow> a binary is a compile program. thats it | |
| <ejer> binary as in binary language, machine language | |
| <oqp> binary means two things: the executable binary (compiled from source) and binary format vs text format. | |
| <ejer> meaning 1s and 0s, so binary as in 2 possible answers | |
| <oqp> in the end, it's always binary :) | |
| <BluesKaj> ok, now we have the basis of the name binary .. | |
| <ejer> of course wikipedia will explain it better than I will | |
| <oqp> if you visit a website for a software, you might find "binaries" there, and the source. | |
| <BluesKaj> i suspected it might be the machine language | |
| <oqp> if possible, it's better to stay away from those and install the software thru your package manager. | |
| <BluesKaj> right oqp...referred to that earier | |
| <ejer> oqp: xen demo will do advanced topics, not just install? | |
| <oqp> nobody really talks of machine language anymore... unless you're really really stuck with it. | |
| <oqp> pretty advanced, the presenter is doing a doctors degree in something related. He knows his kernel. | |
| <BluesKaj> it'd good to have a clue of what's going on underneath , so to speak | |
| <ejer> BluesKaj: this is exactly the point of source based, so you can go look at or change sources before installing | |
| <ejer> with binary based you are trusting the packager to not have messed with the code | |
| <BluesKaj> ok cool ...it clears away some of the fog | |
| <oqp> ubuntu can also be used as a source based distro, if it's kept that from debian ( I hope! ) | |
| <ejer> yes | |
| <ejer> something like http://packages.debian.org/unstable/admin/apt-src | |
| <oqp> just to confuse matters :) | |
| <ejer> apt can do anything :) | |
| <oqp> the point is we have choice | |
| <oqp> apt-get moo | |
| <ejer> yep ;) | |
| <ejer> sudo apt-get install cowsay fortune-mod && cowsay `fortune` | |
| <oqp> cowsay? cool! | |
| <ejer> best program on linux | |
| <oqp> better then sl ?? | |
| <BluesKaj> ?? | |
| <ejer> haha | |
| <oqp> sudo apt-get install sl && sl | |
| <ejer> never saw sl | |
| <oqp> it's my fav :) | |
| <ejer> man linux people are freaky | |
| <BluesKaj> what's sl ? | |
| <oqp> better then mencal even | |
| <ejer> haha | |
| <ejer> wish I could put the cow on sl | |
| <ejer> or in front of | |
| <oqp> sl has options... | |
| <ejer> yes | |
| <ejer> flying sl! | |
| <oqp> BluesKaj you have to try it :) | |
| <oqp> we promise it's harmless | |
| <ejer> I love the man page | |
| <ejer> An accident seems to happen. You’ll feel pity for people who cry | |
| <ejer> for help. | |
| <oqp> :) | |
| <BluesKaj> cool :) | |
| <ejer> have you guys ever tried the aafilter for mplayer? | |
| <BluesKaj> so it's just ascript someone wrote | |
| <ejer> BluesKaj: yes, it is for when you type sl instead of ls | |
| <ejer> to blow your mind | |
| <BluesKaj> right :) | |
| <ejer> I used to alias all the misspellings I could make to the real commands | |
| <oqp> on gentoo it lasts for 3 minutes and you can't stop it with ctrl-c | |
| <ejer> awesome | |
| <oqp> yeah, aafilter, mplayer and an lcd projector | |
| <oqp> you should come more often to our parties :) | |
| <ejer> I know I am a lazy ass | |
| <BluesKaj> this is interesting , usually there's no one around in here | |
| <ejer> bored today ;) | |
| <ejer> making drupal themes.... I am getting burnt out | |
| <oqp> just how many do you make a day?? | |
| <ejer> who knows | |
| <ejer> 4 in last 2 days | |
| <ejer> not finished theming yet | |
| <ejer> but my clients are insatiable now that they have learned the power of the cms | |
| <oqp> never let them drink the cool-aid | |
| <ejer> well I prefer doing this to static html anyways | |
| <ejer> but do anything too long and I get bored | |
| <holycow> ejer, do you do any joomla work? | |
| <ejer> yes | |
| <ejer> prefer drupe | |
| <holycow> do you do this for a living? got samples i can look at? what do you charge? | |
| <ejer> yes, no, it varies | |
| <ejer> hehe | |
| <holycow> lol! | |
| <holycow> how am i supposed to offer you work if you don't have samples :) | |
| <ejer> if you want to email me we can set something up | |
| <ejer> however, I am pretty booked ATM | |
| <ejer> knock on wood | |
| <holycow> do you have a website? | |
| <holycow> give me an email as well | |
| <ejer> The RSS-feed from Waglo seems to be broken, because of error "no element found" on line 1. | |
| <ejer> http://jeremychapman.info/cms/ | |
| <ejer> is my personal site | |
| <oqp> hmm, what feed are you using exactly? | |
| <ejer> I am always in the process of setting up the corporate one ;)( | |
| <oqp> haha | |
| <holycow> no worries | |
| <holycow> where are you located? | |
| <ejer> mtl | |
| <ejer> oqp: will check | |
| <holycow> mtl? montreal? | |
| <holycow> sweet | |
| <ejer> holycow: yes, sorry | |
| <oqp> thanks for the report, I'll try and fix it on my end. | |
| <holycow> canuckistani and a linux user | |
| <holycow> do you do your work on win or lin? | |
| <ejer> oqp: http://rym.waglo.com/wordpress/feed/ | |
| <ejer> holycow: ubuntu of course | |
| <holycow> lol well that alone makes me want to hire you :) | |
| <holycow> heh | |
| <ejer> and just recently on mac a little | |
| <ejer> nice ;) | |
| <ejer> and ubuntu on mac actually, which works great | |
| <ejer> on macbook I should say | |
| <ejer> and right now I have a div I cannot get to line up no matter what grr | |
| <holycow> sent you an email via contact form | |
| <ejer> k | |
| <oqp> http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Frym.waglo.com%2Fwordpress%2Ffeed%2F | |
| <oqp> weird, it's massaged by feedburner, it should be fine. Probably some temporary hiccup. | |
| <ejer> oqp: it actually happens a lot | |
| <ejer> it worked 2006-12-11 10:01 and was broken 2006-12-12 10:00 | |
| <oqp> oh, not the first time... | |
| <ejer> maybe when there are no new entries? | |
| <oqp> look ok now: http://jeremychapman.info/cms/aggregator/sources/3 | |
| <ejer> it is about 40% of the time it seems | |
| <ejer> look at updated time | |
| <ejer> Updated: 2 days 8 hours ago | |
| <oqp> 2 days | |
| <ejer> is that right? | |
| <oqp> 2006/12/10 at 11h | |
| <oqp> I'd say so. | |
| <ejer> just tried to refresh, got same error | |
| <ejer> it is when there is nothing to get | |
| <ejer> but the rest of the feeds do not give that error | |
| <oqp> my server redirects to feedburner | |
| <ejer> it should say " There is no new syndicated content from" | |
| <oqp> maybe you want to use the feedburner link directly | |
| <oqp> http://feeds.feedburner.com/im2oqp | |
| <oqp> lemme know if that helps. | |
| <ejer> could it be this http://feedvalidator.org/docs/warning/CommentRSS.html | |
| <oqp> it's jsust a warning | |
| <oqp> it shouldn't work some days, not others. | |
| <ejer> trying feedburner | |
| <ejer> Updated: 8 sec ago | |
| <ejer> that works | |
| <oqp> should give exactly the same content except you're bypassing one http redirect. | |
| <ejer> drupal likes the second one more | |
| <ejer> it likes to go straight to the source | |
| <oqp> then file a bug report against drupal and it's processing of rss feeds and redirects. | |
| <oqp> :) | |
| <ejer> I'd rather blame wordpress and be done with it | |
| <ejer> ;) | |
| <oqp> yeah, maybe wp is doing the redirect wrong... I'll have a look later. | |
| <oqp> using a third-party plugin for feedburner. | |
| <ejer> doesn't WP have rss built-in? why third party? | |
| <ejer> just wondering | |
| <ejer> bandwidth I guess | |
| <oqp> to use feedburner | |
| <oqp> bandwidth and cache, yeah. | |
| <oqp> for a while my blog was hosted at home on adsl. | |
| <ejer> right | |
| <oqp> and feedburner cleans up the feed a bit, which I liked. | |
| <oqp> and gives me feed usage statistics. | |
| <oqp> but I got bored of those a long time ago. | |
| <ejer> are you still doing your own uptime? | |
| <oqp> well now I'm hosted at koumbit for the most part. | |
| <oqp> I still have a few subdomains running here, like http://tools.waglo.com/ | |
| <oqp> uptime isn't bad, but I'm not too serious about it either. | |
| <ejer> your awake time I mean | |
| <oqp> I'd like your impressions on this if you have a moment to spare: http://rym.waglo.com/wordpress/2006/12/08/taking-down-free-software-myths/ | |
| <oqp> oh, it's oscillating.. not keeping a log anymore. | |
| <ejer> developper should have one p | |
| <ejer> you want spelling corrections? | |
| <oqp> sure | |
| <oqp> that word... I know I never ever get it right. | |
| <oqp> I'm also interest in a response, of course :) | |
| <ejer> ressources - take out an s | |
| <ejer> I would make it more clear what are the myths you are discussin | |
| <ejer> g | |
| <oqp> yeah | |
| <ejer> make this a heading "Myth: You have to be a developer to get the most out of Free Software" | |
| <oqp> I sort of stopped in the middle of writing something larger and cut a piece out for a post. | |
| <oqp> great, I'll change it right away. | |
| <ejer> so you are saying there is no such thing as a developer, all users are developers | |
| <ejer> or should/could be | |
| <oqp> the contrary | |
| <oqp> all developers are users, first. | |
| <oqp> you might be _a_ developer, but it doesn't make you more familiar with 95% of the software you'll be dealing with. | |
| <ejer> ok | |
| <ejer> I guess I don't see the conclusion | |
| <oqp> it gives you potential, but only work, reading and experience will really help you. | |
| <ejer> ah, so saying one is a developer does not really mean much in our environment | |
| <oqp> I'll keep that in mind and post an update soon. | |
| <ejer> it is experience and usage that counts | |
| <oqp> yeah | |
| <oqp> having the source is a big deal, but you don'T have to be a developer to make use of it. | |
| <oqp> you can hire someone, etc. | |
| <oqp> another point I'm trying to make is about the true free market free software enables. | |
| <ejer> right, there are benefits to free software that extend beyond the concerns of developers | |
| <ejer> and into the realm of users, who can then alter the software by hiring developers, whereas in closed-source worlds you are bound by the initial developer's work | |
| <oqp> that most benefits do, yeah. | |
| <oqp> exactly. | |
| <ejer> cooperation vs. competition | |
| <oqp> hiring developers, bug reports, making your voice heard, organising a fund raiser, documenting, etc. | |
| <oqp> a nice mixture of both actually. | |
| <ejer> but the competition is for ego rather than economic domination | |
| <oqp> but I didn't really go that far with the post. | |
| <ejer> I am actually reading cathedral and bazaar now | |
| <oqp> there is some of that but honestly I don't see it as a dominating factor. | |
| <oqp> it kind of blows things out of proportion (catb) | |
| <ejer> sure | |
| <ejer> but he is making his point... and it is cool to read about fetchmail | |
| <oqp> competition happens because free software becomes a commodity and anyone can take a stab at it. | |
| <ejer> yes but on a developer level the competition is largely for bragging rights | |
| <oqp> patents and propriatery licences are a huge indrince (sp???) to that. | |
| <ejer> lugradio talked about this last week I think | |
| <oqp> true for developers. | |
| <oqp> but users form a larger mass | |
| <ejer> they form a market | |
| <oqp> there's more cooperation going on at that end of the pool. | |
| <oqp> users are actors too. | |
| <ejer> sure | |
| <ejer> aren't we all? | |
| <oqp> they're not simply consumers, but provide a lot of feedback necesary for it to work. | |
| <ejer> not to mention a demand | |
| <oqp> with propriatery stuf, you don't need that much feedback. | |
| <oqp> only the bottom line matter. | |
| <ejer> nor do you want it after beta is over | |
| <oqp> And I'm not saying that to whine. | |
| <oqp> I am going to try and write a lot more. There's still a lot to say on these topics. | |
| <ejer> but are linux users not closer to developers than in closed source? | |
| <ejer> I would say we are all but a step away from being developers | |
| <oqp> yes, I guess so. | |
| <ejer> an emacs away | |
| <oqp> how important to you think that is? | |
| <oqp> or why do you think it's important? | |
| <ejer> a never ending supply of developers, a constantly expanding source | |
| <ejer> and therefore an expanding pool of software | |
| <oqp> because users are closer to developers ? | |
| <ejer> because the switch can be made so easily | |
| <oqp> ah | |
| <ejer> because when something doesn't do what you want, you can tinker | |
| <ejer> and because the whole system is set up to encourage you to fix problems, not bitch about them | |
| <oqp> it's in contradiction with the "mythical man month" but yeah, it works on the bigger scale. | |
| <ejer> so even if you fix it by hiring a developer to implement what you envision, you are still 'developing' for linux | |
| <ejer> by proxy as it were... this can't happen in closed source unless you get them to build a custom solution | |
| <oqp> or developing for free software, as I prefer to see it. | |
| <oqp> most linux stuff is actually quite portable. | |
| <ejer> yes | |
| <ejer> I interchange those terms too loosely | |
| <ejer> linux is shortest one to type :) | |
| <ejer> I guess foss is actuall | |
| <lophylap> hey folks | |
| <ejer> hello | |
| <oqp> floss | |
| <oqp> I just heard back from the people at SFD | |
| <oqp> they had good news, I'm going to see on the other end now if it'S possible to move the Free Software Week from nov. to sept. | |
| <ejer> unknown acronym | |
| <ejer> software freedom day? | |
| <oqp> ejer what's your take on that, moving the sqil.info ? | |
| <oqp> ejer yes about sfd | |
| <ejer> I had not heard about it | |
| <oqp> ever since sfd started, it's always bugged me that it wasn't synced with the sqil. | |
| <oqp> weird | |
| <oqp> we had a party for sfd :) | |
| <ejer> oh no I did not hear about move | |
| <oqp> no | |
| <ejer> so what is the date of sfd? | |
| <oqp> we haven't really talked about it. | |
| <ejer> you are moving sqil to match sfd | |
| <oqp> sfd is 3rd saturday of september | |
| <oqp> I am tempted to move sqil, yes. | |
| <ejer> it sounds right | |
| <ejer> so sqil would end on sfd? | |
| <oqp> make it easier to take it canada-wide too. | |
| <oqp> or begin.. | |
| <ejer> or peak | |
| <ejer> :) | |
| <ejer> ya do it I say | |
| <oqp> the problem with september is it really doesn't give a lot of time for schools to prepare. | |
| <ejer> is it exam time | |
| <oqp> so I want it as late as possible. | |
| <ejer> no school beginning | |
| <ejer> I don't know hehe been out of school too long | |
| <oqp> almost 20 years... | |
| <oqp> ouch | |
| <oqp> this change could mean hell for sqil though. It's a touchy subject..... | |
| <ejer> so we kick off sqil with sfd and then conitnue for 6 days | |
| <oqp> sqil is 9 days | |
| <ejer> how many people involved? | |
| <oqp> you get more with free software :) | |
| <ejer> nice | |
| <oqp> hard to tell | |
| <ejer> our week goes to 9! | |
| <ejer> well, it seems to make sense, unless you have outside interests who want it in nov | |
| <oqp> it's really decentralized, local organizers do their thing. | |
| <ejer> local 'cells' | |
| <oqp> I take care of coordinating stuff, media, website, communications, posters, etc. | |
| <oqp> this year though I took the backseat cuz I'm not really top shape and felt abandonned back in june/july. | |
| <oqp> it's like politics | |
| <ejer> it is hard to be dedicated | |
| <oqp> there are always outside interests | |
| <ejer> yep | |
| <oqp> I try to be very objective, but not everyone trusts me. | |
| <ejer> you almost have to be a dictator | |
| <ejer> I love being democratic, but it often means things don't get done | |
| <oqp> I'm part dictator I think | |
| <ejer> you have to be | |
| <oqp> but I also shun (??) attention | |
| <ejer> I call it leader though | |
| <oqp> 'm trying all my new words today ;) | |
| <ejer> good one, and perfectly used | |
| <oqp> it means "crave" right? | |
| <oqp> :)) | |
| <ejer> yes, adore, crave, desire | |
| <oqp> seriously, shun is the contrary - I hope. | |
| <ejer> what you need is a puppet dictator that you control like bush/cheney | |
| <ejer> hehe | |
| <ejer> yes shun is negative | |
| <oqp> yeah | |
| <ejer> puppet takes the attention, you get on with busines | |
| <ejer> s | |
| <oqp> it's part of the reason I stepped down as FACIL president. | |
| <ejer> the job of president of anything is to distract from the day-to-day business of the organization they 'run' | |
| <ejer> I am a cynical bastids | |
| <oqp> ;) | |
| <oqp> oh no!! | |
| <oqp> I'm out of coffee - heading for the kitchen | |
| <ejer> yes dinner being served :) |