<sinisterguy> hello, i was wondering if easy ubuntu worked with edgy

<tonyyarusso> sinisterguy: Try in #easyubuntu

<sinisterguy> thanks

<sinisterguy> tonyyarusso: so where are you from?

<tonyyarusso> sinisterguy: Ptbo, ON currently, kind of near Toronto

<sinisterguy> by Ptbo, i'm assuming you mean Peterbourough

<sinisterguy> ??

<Burgundavia> sinisterguy: welcome, not seen you around before

<sinisterguy> Burgundavia: thanks, thats because i just installed ubuntu

<Burgundavia> welcome to Ubuntu then

<sinisterguy> thanks again, i used to run ubuntu back in the warty days though. Then i switched to a distro called archlinux, and now that edgy's out i figured i'd give it another try

<Burgundavia> arch is source-based, no?

<sinisterguy> Burgundavia: not really, it has a very easy to use build system, but there are package repositories

<Burgundavia> ah

<sinisterguy> its very lego-esque in the sense that you have to build (not necessarily compile) everything yourself

<sinisterguy> its kind of wierd with ubuntu cause its very much the oposite

<Burgundavia> right, arch is the i686 compiled distro

<tonyyarusso> My dad wants to start up a company that makes houses in a lego-block fashion.

<Burgundavia> there are a number of ideas like that

<Burgundavia> would be good cheap buildings

<tonyyarusso> Think of how convenient it would be. "Honey, should we put on an addition?" "Sure, but don't start popping the wall off until it stops raining."

<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitat_'67

<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Not quite the same idea, but also interesting.

<mbb> there was house/demo along those lines at the Puyullup Fair this year (by Tacoma).

<mbb> prefab walls, sandwich construction, foam core,

<Burgundavia> I saw a bunch of ideas when I was in NO this June

<mbb> nice internal finish, near log look outside.

<tonyyarusso> This was more of a single-family home idea, with light, foam, wood, and various composite type material blocks, such that you could literally pop off pieces yourself any time you felt like it. And if you needed to redo the wiring in a wall, rather than wrecking and rebuilding it, you just pop off the other layer's pieces, do the work, and snap them back on.

<Burgundavia> cool

<Burgundavia> I was thinking that modern houses don't have much circulation

<Burgundavia> air, that is

<Burgundavia> so why not embed fans in the walls, with air ducts, to move air

<tonyyarusso> Yeah, you could make the blocks all have a channel for air (much like the "Technic" line of legos), so the entire wall itself served to circulate and heat/cool the house.

<mbb> Burgundavia: you working on the next edition of The Book yet?

<sinisterguy> The Book?

<Burgundavia> mbb: yep

<Burgundavia> sinisterguy: I am a co-author on the Official Ubuntu Book

<mbb> Official Ubuntu Book

<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Are you planning to release one with every LTS, or more often?

<sinisterguy> Burgundavia: are you that guy that was on tllts a few shows back?

<Burgundavia> along with being leader of Ubuntu Canada, chief editor of the UWN and whole lot of other hats

<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: we are debating that right now

* tonyyarusso renames Burgundavia Bartholomew

<Burgundavia> nothing is set in stone

<johanbr> How about insulation, though? Could you make the walls fit together tight enough not to lose much heat?

<tonyyarusso> Ah, okay.

<tonyyarusso> johanbr: Ever built a Lego boat? They're watertight.

<tonyyarusso> Wait a second...

<tonyyarusso> @now toronto

<johanbr> tonyyarusso: Point taken. I think my lego-building days were before they had boats. :)

<tonyyarusso> gah

<sinisterguy> any newfies here?

<tonyyarusso> So it's only 8 back home? Maybe I can make that phone call after all.

<Burgundavia> johanbr: not the preformed boats, something you build out of regular bricks

<Burgundavia> I made a lego cup once

<Burgundavia> sinisterguy: I was born there but no longer live there

<johanbr> Burgundavia: and it was good enough that a direct hit didn't hurt?

<sinisterguy> Burgundavia: no kidding, you wouldn't happen to reside in Brampton, ontario would you?

<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Wait...you were born a newfie and your brother was born in SA, and now you're both in BC? Family get around much?

<Burgundavia> sinisterguy: Victoria, BC

<sinisterguy> Burgundavia: wow, long way from home

<Burgundavia> my mother is from BC, met my father in AU

<Burgundavia> my father is from SA

<tonyyarusso> There for school, work, or other?

<Burgundavia> work

<tonyyarusso> What are their fields?

<Burgundavia> my mother was a teacher, father is an ornithologist

<tonyyarusso> For a while there was a possibility that my family would relocate to Germany, but it never went through.

<Burgundavia> for all my travel, I have pretty much only lived in Victoria

<tonyyarusso> I had these little "learn German" tapes with the Family Circus characters on the cover; don't remember much else.

<tonyyarusso> (I was really young at the time)

<sinisterguy> well, i've got to go

<sinisterguy> its 9:11pm and i still haven't had dinner yet

<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot

<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia

<mbb> Madpilot: was thinking of you last week, went to the bc air museum finally

<johanbr> I went by there recently, but now I can't remember where it was. Abbotsford?

<Madpilot> mbb, the one in Victoria? Cool - they've got some good stuff

<mbb> yes, victoria

<Madpilot> johanbr, there's one in Langley

<Madpilot> air museum, that is

<mbb> how does the langley one compare?

<johanbr> Madpilot: Yep, I think that's it. Thanks.

<Madpilot> I haven't been to the one in Langley yet, actually. It's right at the airport, I should fly over sometime

<mbb> looking for ideas on this machine - older laptop, fresh Edgy install. It's got max resolution of 800x600, problem is some aps are taller than 600, but apparently not smart enough to make a scroll bar.

<mbb> any ideas?

<Burgundavia> files bugs on the apps?

<Burgundavia> there isn't much you can do

<mbb> it's pretty common, many apps. maybe a gnome flaw?

<mbb> haven't tried anything with reconfig of xorg stuff, etc.

<mbb> on breezy, set up a virtual desktop that was bigger, but thats a bit clunky.

<Burgundavia> which apps are they?

<johanbr> I think part of it may be metacity not being optimal for low-res displays. Try using a different window manager and see if that helps.

<mbb> evolution is one.

<mbb> even xchat is marginal, have to make both panels autohide to get to the OK button on setup.

<Burgundavia> I doubt it is metacity

<mbb> this install is semi-disposable, if you had any ideas to try.

<mbb> only 160M of ram, so Kubuntu live isn't an option anymore

<johanbr> For the wm idea, you can try installing openbox and then "openbox --replace". Do "metacity --replace" to get metacity back.

<mbb> OK, thanks.

*** rexbron_ is now known as rexbron

<rexbron> lophyte: when you get this, would you consider posting what plans and the source code so that I could take at look at easyvid? (not sure if this got through)

<bradley> rexbron, what is easyvid?

<rexbron> it is a video transcoder project that lophyte is working on, and I am looking to help

<bradley> does anyone know if it is possible to set up a nvidia card with two distinct monitors/desktops instead of the twinview one desktop over multiple monitors?

<bradley> rexbron, like acidrip?

<rexbron> hmm have not checked that out

<bradley> it works with mplayer code so you need both.

<rexbron> easyvid is more for transcoding video from different formats, not just dvds

<bradley> rexbron, but i don't really know what trasncoding is.

<rexbron> for example *.ogg => .mp3

<Simon80> bradley: decomprossing an encoding media file and recompressing it into a different format

<Simon80> yeah

<bradley> ah.

<rexbron> or avi => mp4

<Simon80> an encoded*

<bradley> i forget what the extension that dv is usually saved as but will your project support it?

<Simon80> rexbron: are you implementing the codecs yourself? cause that would be reinventing the wheel, no?

<rexbron> no, as I understand it, we are using a backend like gstreamer

<Simon80> ok, yeah

<Simon80> so it's gui frontend... that's pretty nice

<Simon80> it's a GUI*

<rexbron> note that lophyte is the one developing it, I am just trying to learn some useful python

<rexbron> it is registered in launchpad

<rexbron> as easyvid

<Simon80> Burgundavia: where exactly did you see that feisty would be shipping closed source drivers? It would be helpful to put that in the blog entry, cause I know I'm curious, and that wiki page alone doesn't seem to indicate that feisty will handle closed source stuff any differently from current releases

<Simon80> ah

<Burgundavia> "We are installing non-Free drivers by default,"

<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverEducation

<Burgundavia> https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/accelerated-x

<Burgundavia> "Both NVIDIA and ATI proprietary drivers will be installed by default, on Ubuntu Feisty"

<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: I thought we weren't even allowed to do that anyway

<Burgundavia> no, we are

<tonyyarusso> Plus, fglrx was mad buggy last I tried it, so this could come back to seriously bite some folks.

<Simon80> oh, boy, it's the first sentence

<Simon80> yeah, seriously, I don't think fglrx is stable enough to even use on a production desktop

<Simon80> you logout and it eats your computer

<Simon80> and who does that reflect on? not ATI

<tonyyarusso> Would it be terribly mean for us to refer anyone who walks into #ubuntu with binary driver bugs to the people in charge of this spec?

<Simon80> no, it wouldn't

<Simon80> given out animosity about the decision

<Simon80> Burgundavia: still a good idea to put it in the blog entry, for people who get inked to it and not any of the supporting pages

<bradley> someone suggested using a xinerama howto to set up nvidia with dual monitors (rather than twinview) does that seem like it would work?

<Burgundavia> Simon80: yes, I should link diretly

<Simon80> what exactly is accelerated-x anyhow? I understand what composite support is

<Burgundavia> spinny cubes

<Burgundavia> expose-style stuff

<Simon80> compositing is for spinny cubes... I think they just mean getting glxinfo to say DR: yes

<Simon80> but then the dependencies are wierdd, they have accel depending on composite, unless those arrows are opposite to how I interpret them

<Simon80> and to be clear, I've tried out compiz

<Burgundavia> there are good things you can do with accelerated X

<Burgundavia> however I don't think they are worth compromising our freedom

<Simon80> but what I'm asking is what is meant by accelerated X

<Simon80> do they merely mean hardware acceleration

<Simon80> ?

<Burgundavia> yes

<Burgundavia> hence the requirement for non-free drivers

<Simon80> well.. it's only a requirement for fairly new ati cards, less new ati cards if they want better performance, and most nv cards for now

<Simon80> I have an r300, same generation as nvidia 5xxx cards, and it works ok out of box

<Simon80> just not good performance for anything newer than 1uake3 engine

<Simon80> quake*

<Burgundavia> right. Every ATI after 9800 needs non-free drivers

<Burgundavia> which means every new ATI for the past 3 or 4 years

<Burgundavia> every nvidia card in the past 6 or so needs them

<Burgundavia> which is probably 75% of all machines out there

<Simon80> err, I think the X700 and X800 cards work with the free drive

<Simon80> r

<Simon80> just slowly

<Burgundavia> work != have hardware acceleration

<Burgundavia> all cards except the newest ATI have a free 2D only driver

<Burgundavia> we need a 3D driver for the acceleratedX stuff

<Simon80> are you sure about that? cause I'm 95% sure that they do have _3D_ hardware acceleration (works = 2D acceleration is what you meant to say), but it's very slow

<Simon80> much better than none though

<Burgundavia> they have software rendering, not hardware

<Burgundavia> the acceleratedX needs hardware

<Simon80> ok, you're making me crack out hard research

<Simon80> to prove I'm right

<Burgundavia> but you are wrong :)

<Burgundavia> again, having a driver that does software acceleration is not enough

<Simon80> I know it's not enough

<Burgundavia> if it was, we would already have the spinny cube

<Simon80> lol, gimme a minute

<Burgundavia> and there are no free 3D drivers for some cards

<Burgundavia> Tourudactyl: greetings

<Tourudactyl> Hello!

<Simon80> some cards

<Burgundavia> Tourudactyl: how is my book coming?

<Simon80> but X700 and X800 are not in that subset

<Tourudactyl> I actually haven't looked at it at all, yet, but probably will this week.

<Tourudactyl> Sorry, I know you prolly wanted to have it back by now.

<Burgundavia> Simon80: but what about the X17xx series?

<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_R520

<Simon80> nothing, not even 2d

<Burgundavia> that class of cards

<Burgundavia> and the r300 driver is not the most stable

<Burgundavia> and then we get to the Nvidia drivers

<Burgundavia> http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/

<Burgundavia> that is the only free option, and it is far from production stable'

<Simon80> http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/R300%20Benchmark

<Simon80> r300 isn't stable, but for me its instabilities are more acceptable than a hard lockup of X whenever I logout

<Simon80> above link, X700LE

<Simon80> as you can see, it has accell

<Burgundavia> so we will use r300 where we can

<Simon80> yeah

<Burgundavia> but that still leaves a lot of people with non-free drivers

<Simon80> indeed

<Burgundavia> because Linux people have been buying Nvidia

<Simon80> yeah, it sucks that people buy them for better closed source support, without the option to switch

<Simon80> to a free driver

<Burgundavia> yep

<Burgundavia> hmm, kamloops uses electoral machines

<Burgundavia> http://www.city.kamloops.bc.ca/legislativeservices/elections/votingmachines.shtml

<robitaille> remind me never to move there :)

<Burgundavia> indeed

<Burgundavia> watching hacking democracy

<Simon80> lol, super, they're used here

<Burgundavia> I thought Quebec just banned them?

<Simon80> yeah

<Burgundavia> "passwords are our encryption passwords" <-- Diebold president

<Simon80> what?

<Burgundavia> s/passwords/technology/

<Simon80> lol

<Simon80> ow

<tonyyarusso> Mmmm corrupt companies in charge of who runs the country

<Simon80> ?

<Simon80> zimbabwe?

<tonyyarusso> US

<Simon80> ah, same difference... jk

<Burgundavia> ok, hacking democracy is pretty chilling

<Burgundavia> I am glad Canada still votes using paper

<Burgundavia> but what truly cracks me up is that India votes electronically

<Burgundavia> their machines are produced by the govt of Inida

<Tourudactyl> lol

<Simon80> lol

<Tourudactyl> That's, er, a lot of trust in the sitting government!

<Simon80> I haven't watched HD, but I've heard of a couple of the 'sploits earier on

<Burgundavia> Tourudactyl: and you trust a company?

<Burgundavia> we trust Elections BC and Elections Canada

<Simon80> that's why voting machines have to be transparent, and auditable

<Burgundavia> there is no reason to have computers involved in elections at all

<Simon80> indeed

<Simon80> heard of that hole-punch scheme that was on /.?

<Burgundavia> the hanging chad stuff?

<Simon80> no

<Burgundavia> http://www.eci.gov.in/

<Simon80> where there are two pieces and you mark both, keep one, and can check that your vote was registered correctly online without revealing who voted for what

<Burgundavia> http://www.eci.gov.in/faq/evm.asp

<Burgundavia> and interesting

<Burgundavia> except that is trivially hackable

<Burgundavia> get the logs of the webserver and then start doing geoIP on specific pages

<Simon80> not good enough to prove someone voted either way, you can make it easy for pages to be viewable by others

<Simon80> not just the voter

<Burgundavia> ah

<Burgundavia> ultimately it comes down to this: you need to trust the system

<Burgundavia> I trust a group of people are great deal more than a group of machines

<Burgundavia> because the machines will all act the same way while people will not

<Burgundavia> so the very entropy is using lots of people actually creates order

<Burgundavia> s/is/of/

<Burgundavia> Simon80: ping

<Simon80> heh, I'm not here!

<Burgundavia> just checking my own connection

<Simon80> oh

<Simon80> Burgundavia: ping

* Simon80 waits for something to happen.. lol

<Burgundavia> ype

<lophyte> morning all

<Despised> talkative bunch I know

<lophyte> they always are ;)

<bradley> i thought gnome-art had cursors... but i can't find them... does anyone know where i should go?

<johanbr> bradley: Try http://gnome-look.org

<sinisterguy> why do they compile lirc in the lirc howto on the forums? is there something wrong with lirc from the repos?

<bradley_> johanbr, yeah that is totally it. thanks.

<johanbr> No problem.

<tonyyarusso> sinisterguy: Who knows. Didn't work for me, but I don't really know what I'm doing.

<tonyyarusso> (On that particular thing, I should clarify.)

<sinisterguy> tonyyarusso: what about mpd, do you have any experience with that?

<tonyyarusso> sinisterguy: Never even heard of that..

<sinisterguy> tonyyarusso: music player daemon? you've never heard of it?

<tonyyarusso> Nope

<lophyte> hey guys

<tonyyarusso> sinisterguy: Looks cool

<sinisterguy> tonyyarusso: i do a lot of work outside of X sometimes so its great.

<sinisterguy> tonyyarusso: and if X ever crashes, your music keeps on truckin

<tonyyarusso> sinisterguy: Yeah, which is perfect actually. I have a desktop with X and a server desktop, and I'd like the desktop to play the streaming radio from a station back home, but being able to control it from the laptop would be awesome.

<sinisterguy> tonyyarusso: also, since mpd is client/server based, you could easily have mpd on your server desktop and connect to it from all your other machines

<tonyyarusso> Right

<oqp> or xmms2 :)

<sinisterguy> oqp: xmms2 can act as an mpd client?

<oqp> I hear both projects are collaborating.

<oqp> xmms2 is also client/server based.

<sinisterguy> i miss my FLAC music library :(

<sinisterguy> i wish i had the space for it

<sinisterguy> lossy codecs just aren't the same :(

<Simon80> I have an external HDD for that

<Simon80> you can keep a backup in flac

<sinisterguy> what would the file size difference be between 320kbps ogg and flac?

<Simon80> dunno, why would you use 320kbps ogg?

<sinisterguy> Simon80: because its closer to the quality of flac

<Simon80> well, flac's lossless, I figure once you decide to go lossy, might as well do it right and save the space

<Simon80> and I have decent headphones... if I can't really hear the diff, might as well reclaim the space

<sinisterguy> Simon80: i guess, i'll probably keep my old flac library as a backup, but right now my flac lib (of stuff that i actually listen to) is about 20GB and that's the size of my ubuntu partition

<sinisterguy> i might resize my arch partition later though

<Simon80> my whole flac thing is between 20-25

<sinisterguy> well, i'm off for the night

<sinisterguy> ttyl

<bradley__> what is that box that pops up that says ubuntu and shows when it is loading window managers and stuff?

<bradley__> or more precisely how do i turn it off or change it?

<Burgundavia> bradley__: that is the gnome-splash screen]

<bradley__> thanks.

<bradley__> i am changing themes and the brown isn't complimenting it all that much

<Burgundavia> right

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